| 24. Јануари 2008
The names of the Balkan Dalmatians (Glamočani) and North-European Delaminci (Glomači) could be taken as the most important (crucial) evidence that Slavic tribes were living in the Balkan even in the most ancient B. C. times.
Author: Dušan Vukotić
Abri; Serbian surname Obrići, Obrenović, Branići; those who defend themselves, defenders; fromSerbian o/d/braniti (defend)
Albanoi; family names Albijanić, Labanić; Labović, Albić, Alavanja, Labus; toponyms Lab, Labin.Lapovo (obviously Albanoi and Labeati were the two names of the same Slavic tribe called Labani or Labinjani (related to the Serbian verb livati/liti (pour, libation); when prefixed by the preposition *sa- (with) Labani could became S-labani, S-lavani (Slavs); of course these two names, Labani and Slabani/Sloveni/Slavs are most closely related and I will explain it soon in a new thread.
Amandes; Serbian tribe Mandići.
Andizetes; Serbian tribe Antići; ancient Antes; originally derived from the verb goniti /drive, hunt/; hunters.
Ardiaei (Vardaei); Serbian surname Varda, village Varda in central Serbia; related to Dardani, Serbian Tvrdani; Serbian varda is a apheresis of ut-vrda (fortress; t/vrđava) and varda has the same meaning in Serbian as tvrđava (fortress).
Ardian; same as above, varda.
Autariatae; those people were on and around the today's Serbian mountain Tara (Western Serbia); Serbian surname Tarana; as we can see the names of the mountain and the river ─ Tara are derived from the same source as the name of the river Drina (Tara is the tributary of Drina) and the name of the ancient Autariatae's centar Tariona (all words connected to the Serbian words teranje (driving, forcing, urge or force /a person/ to an action), udariti, udaranje (hit, strike, beat); hence also Illyrian-Slavic tribes Deuri (Serbian family names Devrići, Deurići, Deure, Deronjići, Deretići; when we observe the Serbian verb udarati/udariti (hit, strike, beat) and compare it with other Serbian words as derati (flay), terati (force, drive, terrorize), trenje/treti (de-trition, friction), sa-tirati (destroy) then we are getting a clearer picture what really has happened, not only to the name of the Autariatae tribe but also we are going to understand where the other tribe names (as above Deuri or even Dardani and Dindari; cf. Serbian surname Tintor) originated from.
Breuci; probably Serbi Prečani; from the Serbian adverb preko (over, through, beyond; in this case "beyond the river Drina" - Serbs from Bosnia).
Bylliones; Serbian tribe Bjelani; Serbian town of Bijeljina in Bosnia; Bjelice a tribe in Montenegro.
Carni; Serbian surnames Carić/Karić, Karan/Caran also Zarić all related to the word Car /Czar/).
Catari; Serbian family names Kotarica, Kotorić, Čotrić; from the Serbian kotar (district) or četvrt (quarter, section).
Celegari; maybe Serbian family name Kolesar?; from kola “cart makers”; the name acquired according to the proffesion they mostly were engaged with.
Ceraunii: Serbian Gorani, Goranci highlanders, people from mountains).
Daesitiates; Serbian family names Dostići, Dostanići; from Serbian dostignuti/dostići reach, achieve, acomplish; cf. English destination (from Latin destino -are to make fast, fix down; to fix, determine, settle, appoint)
Dalmatae; in the year 1983 Heinrich Kunstmann wrote a chapter in his book (Die Welt der Slawen) under very interesting heading: Kamen die westslawischen Daleminci aus Dalmatien? (Did the West-Slavic Daleminci come from Dalmatia?; 364-371). Kunstmann writes:
"Dass ebenfalls altsorbisches Glomac aus dem Landschaftsnamen Dalmatia enstanden sein kann, hat eigentlich schon £. Schwarz überzeugend gezeigt. Mit vollem Recht hat Schwarz aber auch altsorbisches Glomac, das noch heute in dem Namen der Stadt Lommatzsch enthalten ist, mit dem dalmatinischen ON Glamoc in Verbindung gebracht, was besagt, dass beide Toponyme Vertretungen für Dalmatia sind, ohne dass dabei einem unbekanten alteuropaischen Volk die Rolle des tertium comparationis zugewiesen werden muss."
Kunstmann follows Germania's Serbs called Dalminci/Glomači (Sclavi, qui vocantur Dalmatii) to Illyria's Serbs, to Duklya/Dalmatia, to Dlamoch and Glamoch. He also added that there would be no need to search for a certain Old-European (extinct) people, because the etymology of the names Daleminci/ Glomači and the Balkan Dalmatae/Glamoč is clearly Serbo-Slavic. Of course, Kunstmann was right, because the Dalmatian name was born from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis; wherefrom the Serbian word dolmača => dumača (valley, barrow, hole, pit); from Glumača (g=>d velar to dental sound change; i.e. Serbian hum/humka (mound) from hlum or hulm/helm (from humila => gomila heap; also known as mogila; this word suffered a very hard transposition of sounds and syllables within the word); all finally related to the Serbian word oblak (Serb. kobeljanje rolling about; kobeljanje oblaka “rolling of the clouds”; Latin cumulus (heap, pile), accumulo -are heap up, pile up; Serb. n/a-gomilati heap up, pile up). In reality, Serbian glumača and dlumača/dumača have opposite meanings: Glumača/Glamoč/Glomač is the mountainous area and Dlumača is a sub-mountainous region, which appeared to be a deep pit when observed from the mountain's heights.
Daorsi; Tresići, Trsići; Serbian village Tršić where the great Serbian linguist Vuk S. Karadžić was born; from trsiti se (be courageous), otresit (self-assured); towns of Trsat in Dalmatia and Trieste in Italy
Dardani; the Serbo-Slavic tribe's family and personal names Turudići, Tvrdići, Turudija, Darodan, Tvrdani (interesting in the Bible Darda is "a wise man" and in Serbo-Slavic Darodan is "a gifted man")
Dassaretae; Tesarić (Serbian tesar carpenter; daska board, plank; also German Tischler, Tisch; Serbian Tesla, Teslić from verb tesati hew; testera saw).
Docleatae; Serbian surmane Dugljević; village Dugulja (cf. Duklja the ancient Serbian state) in Crna Gora /Montenegro/; related to Serbian dolina (valley) and daleko (distant); wherefrom the words as Serbian adverb dug (long; from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; do-/b/l-gna => dolina (dingle); do-/b/l-gna => du/l/gina => dlgina => dužina (length); dlgo => dugo (long).
Enchelaeae: probably Serbian surname Angelići, Anđelići; angel.
Glintidiones; Serbian family name Glintići; from glina clay.
Grabaei; Serbian Grabići, places as Grablje, Grabovo; from Serbian grabiti (grab); cf. A kind of tree grab (hornbeam; Lat. Carpinus); cf. Serbian kriv (curved), the well-known Serbo-Slavic tribe Krivići.
Japodes (Jafydes, Japydia, or Japygia, in Italy); probably Serbian surname Japundža (japundža "a kind of a gown"; from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; Serbian /h/oble-gna => obleka (cloth) => oblačenje (clothing); the other possibility is the Serbian word japadno "on the shady (shadowy) side of a hill"; japad => zapad (west); this word is also derived from Gon-Bel-Gon Ur-basis /h/o-pal-gnuti => o/pa/l/dati => opadati (falling) => padati, palo (fall, fallen).
Illyri; there is no one in the world who can say that Illyrian language ever existed; also, no one can say that Illyrians were ever a compact nation. The name Illyric might be connected to the instrument lyra and Latin hilaro -are [to make joyful, to cheer up]. In fact, Illyrians could be named Kolarići in Serbian (cf. today pejorative name for Serbs and Yugoslavs in Germany - Kolaritsch). Of course, the initial velar is omitted in Illyric, just as it happened in thousands of other IE words (cf. Greek ήλιος/helios the sun). (H)elios (the sun) was named like that thanks to the round shape of that star (Serbian kolo circle; Greek κύκλος circle, κυλιστος twined in a circle). The Serbian word KOLO also means 'dance' (Serb. kolo igrati - dance, celebrate; here we can see that Latin celebratio clearly corresponds to the Serbian word 'kolovrat' [vrteti se u kolu - to rotate in a circle]).
Now we know that Latin 'hilaro' is the same word as Serbian 'kolari' (those who dance, celebrate, kolovrte or vrte se u kolu). The name Slavs also comes from the verb 'slaviti' (celebrate or dance in a circle). Additionally, Serbian words 'slaviti' (celebrate) and 'sloboda' (freedom, liberty) came from the same paleo-basis (shur-bhel-ghon). Interesting, the same logic was present when Albanians took the Latin word 'hilaro' as their 'liri' (liberty; from hilabr => liber-).
Lopsi; Serbian tribe Lopušine; probably from Latin lupus (wolf); there is the Serbian word lupež (rogue, villain), also lopov (thief).
Narensii; Neretvljani, Serbo-Slavic river Neretva, Nerodiva (fruitless), similar to the river Nerodimka (from Nerodibka => Nerodivka; cf. Neretva) in Serbia (also infertile, barren) that bore the name Rodimka (fruitfull, fertile), before its bifurcation disappeared (desiccated); cf. the village Nerodimlje by the reiver Nerodimka in Serbia, village Radimlje (near Stolac, Bosnia), and village Radomlje (Slovenia), village Radovlje (Bosnia), village Radoblje (Croatia). In these cases, there are two key words: radjati /rod, rodovi/ (to give birth, genus, relatives) and the word radovati se (be joies), both closely connected because the people of the Balkan consider the birth (especially the son's birth) to be the greatest joy possible.
Ortoplini; obviously, the names Rodovlje (rodovlje relatives, genus), Rodoblje, Radovlje, Rodimlje, Radimlje, which could also be derived from the Serbian word rodoljublje (patriotism), Rodoljub (personal name; one who loves his nation) are very close to the above tribe name - Ortoplini. As we know, the Greeks had a custom of adding an initial vowel to the words of the foreign origin (cf. Slavic Radgost, Greek Αρδαγαστος, Egypt/Αιγυπτος from Latin Coptus, Arabic qubtu).
Oseriates; there are many of Slavic tribe names well-known during the Middle Ages: Krivići, Vjatići, Hrvati, Bodrići, Ljutići, Dragovići, Severjani (Severci), Milinzi, Duljebi, Došani, Timočani, Strumičani, Pomorani, Rugini, Poljani, Planjani; (all under the common name Sloveni /Slavs/); Even today, Serbian people in Montenegro are organized in tribes: Vasojevići, Lješnjani, Bjelice, Grbljani, Piperi, Crnmničani, Moračani, Rovčani, Ceklinjani, Njeguši, Drobnjaci, Pivljani, Banjani, Paštrovići, Zećani, Mrkojevići, Bjelopavlići, Cuce, Čevljani, Bratonožić, Herakovići, Mandići, Ozrinići, Pješivci, Zagarač i Komani. In reality, any village of the Balkan Serbs/Slavs could potentially be a new "Illyrian nation". Among medieval tribes was a tribe called Jezerci and that Jezerci could be compared to the Illyrian Oseriates and to the Mentenegrin Ozriniće (the author of this text belongs to the Ozrinic tribe).
Pannoni; there is a division between people living on mountains (Serb. Planinci, ancient Plananji) and the people living in plains (Poljani); similar to the above-mentioned division to Glomače (highlanders) and Du-l-mačane, Dalmate (submountaines people).
Parentini; Serbian family name Parentići; for instance, there is a Serbian tribe in Bosnia called Parjenice (in accordance with a certain implement in which the cloth is steamed (Serb. para steam)
Plearaei; maybe Serbian pljevari (threshing people; Serbian pljeva (chaff).
Sardeati; Serdani; Serbian family names Srdići, Sredići; the hillock Srdj above Dubrovnik.
Scirtones; related to the Balkan PN Skadar, Skradin; Zagradjani, Zagorje; Serbo-Slavic family names Zagorac, Škurtić. Škundrić.
Seleitani; probably Serbian surname Slatinjanin; Serbian slatina (salty land, moor); from the Serbian verb zaliti/saliti wash down, suffuse; hence Serbian zlato (gold) and surname Zlatanić.
Taulanti; cf, Serbian village Tulanovce (Talinovac); in fact, Taulanti is the name similar to Dalmatae; Taulanti are the people living in valleys (Serbian dolina, German Tal); Serbian family name Doljanin, Slovenian Dolanc; cf. village Doljanovci (Slavonija/Croatia).
Albanoi; family names Albijanić, Labanić; Labović, Albić, Alavanja, Labus; toponyms Lab, Labin.Lapovo (obviously Albanoi and Labeati were the two names of the same Slavic tribe called Labani or Labinjani (related to the Serbian verb livati/liti (pour, libation); when prefixed by the preposition *sa- (with) Labani could became S-labani, S-lavani (Slavs); of course these two names, Labani and Slabani/Sloveni/Slavs are most closely related and I will explain it soon in a new thread.
Amandes; Serbian tribe Mandići.
Andizetes; Serbian tribe Antići; ancient Antes; originally derived from the verb goniti /drive, hunt/; hunters.
Ardiaei (Vardaei); Serbian surname Varda, village Varda in central Serbia; related to Dardani, Serbian Tvrdani; Serbian varda is a apheresis of ut-vrda (fortress; t/vrđava) and varda has the same meaning in Serbian as tvrđava (fortress).
Ardian; same as above, varda.
Autariatae; those people were on and around the today's Serbian mountain Tara (Western Serbia); Serbian surname Tarana; as we can see the names of the mountain and the river ─ Tara are derived from the same source as the name of the river Drina (Tara is the tributary of Drina) and the name of the ancient Autariatae's centar Tariona (all words connected to the Serbian words teranje (driving, forcing, urge or force /a person/ to an action), udariti, udaranje (hit, strike, beat); hence also Illyrian-Slavic tribes Deuri (Serbian family names Devrići, Deurići, Deure, Deronjići, Deretići; when we observe the Serbian verb udarati/udariti (hit, strike, beat) and compare it with other Serbian words as derati (flay), terati (force, drive, terrorize), trenje/treti (de-trition, friction), sa-tirati (destroy) then we are getting a clearer picture what really has happened, not only to the name of the Autariatae tribe but also we are going to understand where the other tribe names (as above Deuri or even Dardani and Dindari; cf. Serbian surname Tintor) originated from.
Breuci; probably Serbi Prečani; from the Serbian adverb preko (over, through, beyond; in this case "beyond the river Drina" - Serbs from Bosnia).
Bylliones; Serbian tribe Bjelani; Serbian town of Bijeljina in Bosnia; Bjelice a tribe in Montenegro.
Carni; Serbian surnames Carić/Karić, Karan/Caran also Zarić all related to the word Car /Czar/).
Catari; Serbian family names Kotarica, Kotorić, Čotrić; from the Serbian kotar (district) or četvrt (quarter, section).
Celegari; maybe Serbian family name Kolesar?; from kola “cart makers”; the name acquired according to the proffesion they mostly were engaged with.
Ceraunii: Serbian Gorani, Goranci highlanders, people from mountains).
Daesitiates; Serbian family names Dostići, Dostanići; from Serbian dostignuti/dostići reach, achieve, acomplish; cf. English destination (from Latin destino -are to make fast, fix down; to fix, determine, settle, appoint)
Dalmatae; in the year 1983 Heinrich Kunstmann wrote a chapter in his book (Die Welt der Slawen) under very interesting heading: Kamen die westslawischen Daleminci aus Dalmatien? (Did the West-Slavic Daleminci come from Dalmatia?; 364-371). Kunstmann writes:
"Dass ebenfalls altsorbisches Glomac aus dem Landschaftsnamen Dalmatia enstanden sein kann, hat eigentlich schon £. Schwarz überzeugend gezeigt. Mit vollem Recht hat Schwarz aber auch altsorbisches Glomac, das noch heute in dem Namen der Stadt Lommatzsch enthalten ist, mit dem dalmatinischen ON Glamoc in Verbindung gebracht, was besagt, dass beide Toponyme Vertretungen für Dalmatia sind, ohne dass dabei einem unbekanten alteuropaischen Volk die Rolle des tertium comparationis zugewiesen werden muss."
Kunstmann follows Germania's Serbs called Dalminci/Glomači (Sclavi, qui vocantur Dalmatii) to Illyria's Serbs, to Duklya/Dalmatia, to Dlamoch and Glamoch. He also added that there would be no need to search for a certain Old-European (extinct) people, because the etymology of the names Daleminci/ Glomači and the Balkan Dalmatae/Glamoč is clearly Serbo-Slavic. Of course, Kunstmann was right, because the Dalmatian name was born from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis; wherefrom the Serbian word dolmača => dumača (valley, barrow, hole, pit); from Glumača (g=>d velar to dental sound change; i.e. Serbian hum/humka (mound) from hlum or hulm/helm (from humila => gomila heap; also known as mogila; this word suffered a very hard transposition of sounds and syllables within the word); all finally related to the Serbian word oblak (Serb. kobeljanje rolling about; kobeljanje oblaka “rolling of the clouds”; Latin cumulus (heap, pile), accumulo -are heap up, pile up; Serb. n/a-gomilati heap up, pile up). In reality, Serbian glumača and dlumača/dumača have opposite meanings: Glumača/Glamoč/Glomač is the mountainous area and Dlumača is a sub-mountainous region, which appeared to be a deep pit when observed from the mountain's heights.
Daorsi; Tresići, Trsići; Serbian village Tršić where the great Serbian linguist Vuk S. Karadžić was born; from trsiti se (be courageous), otresit (self-assured); towns of Trsat in Dalmatia and Trieste in Italy
Dardani; the Serbo-Slavic tribe's family and personal names Turudići, Tvrdići, Turudija, Darodan, Tvrdani (interesting in the Bible Darda is "a wise man" and in Serbo-Slavic Darodan is "a gifted man")
Dassaretae; Tesarić (Serbian tesar carpenter; daska board, plank; also German Tischler, Tisch; Serbian Tesla, Teslić from verb tesati hew; testera saw).
Docleatae; Serbian surmane Dugljević; village Dugulja (cf. Duklja the ancient Serbian state) in Crna Gora /Montenegro/; related to Serbian dolina (valley) and daleko (distant); wherefrom the words as Serbian adverb dug (long; from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; do-/b/l-gna => dolina (dingle); do-/b/l-gna => du/l/gina => dlgina => dužina (length); dlgo => dugo (long).
Enchelaeae: probably Serbian surname Angelići, Anđelići; angel.
Glintidiones; Serbian family name Glintići; from glina clay.
Grabaei; Serbian Grabići, places as Grablje, Grabovo; from Serbian grabiti (grab); cf. A kind of tree grab (hornbeam; Lat. Carpinus); cf. Serbian kriv (curved), the well-known Serbo-Slavic tribe Krivići.
Japodes (Jafydes, Japydia, or Japygia, in Italy); probably Serbian surname Japundža (japundža "a kind of a gown"; from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; Serbian /h/oble-gna => obleka (cloth) => oblačenje (clothing); the other possibility is the Serbian word japadno "on the shady (shadowy) side of a hill"; japad => zapad (west); this word is also derived from Gon-Bel-Gon Ur-basis /h/o-pal-gnuti => o/pa/l/dati => opadati (falling) => padati, palo (fall, fallen).
Illyri; there is no one in the world who can say that Illyrian language ever existed; also, no one can say that Illyrians were ever a compact nation. The name Illyric might be connected to the instrument lyra and Latin hilaro -are [to make joyful, to cheer up]. In fact, Illyrians could be named Kolarići in Serbian (cf. today pejorative name for Serbs and Yugoslavs in Germany - Kolaritsch). Of course, the initial velar is omitted in Illyric, just as it happened in thousands of other IE words (cf. Greek ήλιος/helios the sun). (H)elios (the sun) was named like that thanks to the round shape of that star (Serbian kolo circle; Greek κύκλος circle, κυλιστος twined in a circle). The Serbian word KOLO also means 'dance' (Serb. kolo igrati - dance, celebrate; here we can see that Latin celebratio clearly corresponds to the Serbian word 'kolovrat' [vrteti se u kolu - to rotate in a circle]).
Now we know that Latin 'hilaro' is the same word as Serbian 'kolari' (those who dance, celebrate, kolovrte or vrte se u kolu). The name Slavs also comes from the verb 'slaviti' (celebrate or dance in a circle). Additionally, Serbian words 'slaviti' (celebrate) and 'sloboda' (freedom, liberty) came from the same paleo-basis (shur-bhel-ghon). Interesting, the same logic was present when Albanians took the Latin word 'hilaro' as their 'liri' (liberty; from hilabr => liber-).
Lopsi; Serbian tribe Lopušine; probably from Latin lupus (wolf); there is the Serbian word lupež (rogue, villain), also lopov (thief).
Narensii; Neretvljani, Serbo-Slavic river Neretva, Nerodiva (fruitless), similar to the river Nerodimka (from Nerodibka => Nerodivka; cf. Neretva) in Serbia (also infertile, barren) that bore the name Rodimka (fruitfull, fertile), before its bifurcation disappeared (desiccated); cf. the village Nerodimlje by the reiver Nerodimka in Serbia, village Radimlje (near Stolac, Bosnia), and village Radomlje (Slovenia), village Radovlje (Bosnia), village Radoblje (Croatia). In these cases, there are two key words: radjati /rod, rodovi/ (to give birth, genus, relatives) and the word radovati se (be joies), both closely connected because the people of the Balkan consider the birth (especially the son's birth) to be the greatest joy possible.
Ortoplini; obviously, the names Rodovlje (rodovlje relatives, genus), Rodoblje, Radovlje, Rodimlje, Radimlje, which could also be derived from the Serbian word rodoljublje (patriotism), Rodoljub (personal name; one who loves his nation) are very close to the above tribe name - Ortoplini. As we know, the Greeks had a custom of adding an initial vowel to the words of the foreign origin (cf. Slavic Radgost, Greek Αρδαγαστος, Egypt/Αιγυπτος from Latin Coptus, Arabic qubtu).
Oseriates; there are many of Slavic tribe names well-known during the Middle Ages: Krivići, Vjatići, Hrvati, Bodrići, Ljutići, Dragovići, Severjani (Severci), Milinzi, Duljebi, Došani, Timočani, Strumičani, Pomorani, Rugini, Poljani, Planjani; (all under the common name Sloveni /Slavs/); Even today, Serbian people in Montenegro are organized in tribes: Vasojevići, Lješnjani, Bjelice, Grbljani, Piperi, Crnmničani, Moračani, Rovčani, Ceklinjani, Njeguši, Drobnjaci, Pivljani, Banjani, Paštrovići, Zećani, Mrkojevići, Bjelopavlići, Cuce, Čevljani, Bratonožić, Herakovići, Mandići, Ozrinići, Pješivci, Zagarač i Komani. In reality, any village of the Balkan Serbs/Slavs could potentially be a new "Illyrian nation". Among medieval tribes was a tribe called Jezerci and that Jezerci could be compared to the Illyrian Oseriates and to the Mentenegrin Ozriniće (the author of this text belongs to the Ozrinic tribe).
Pannoni; there is a division between people living on mountains (Serb. Planinci, ancient Plananji) and the people living in plains (Poljani); similar to the above-mentioned division to Glomače (highlanders) and Du-l-mačane, Dalmate (submountaines people).
Parentini; Serbian family name Parentići; for instance, there is a Serbian tribe in Bosnia called Parjenice (in accordance with a certain implement in which the cloth is steamed (Serb. para steam)
Plearaei; maybe Serbian pljevari (threshing people; Serbian pljeva (chaff).
Sardeati; Serdani; Serbian family names Srdići, Sredići; the hillock Srdj above Dubrovnik.
Scirtones; related to the Balkan PN Skadar, Skradin; Zagradjani, Zagorje; Serbo-Slavic family names Zagorac, Škurtić. Škundrić.
Seleitani; probably Serbian surname Slatinjanin; Serbian slatina (salty land, moor); from the Serbian verb zaliti/saliti wash down, suffuse; hence Serbian zlato (gold) and surname Zlatanić.
Taulanti; cf, Serbian village Tulanovce (Talinovac); in fact, Taulanti is the name similar to Dalmatae; Taulanti are the people living in valleys (Serbian dolina, German Tal); Serbian family name Doljanin, Slovenian Dolanc; cf. village Doljanovci (Slavonija/Croatia).
Quick Post
Discuss! (8 posts)
Discuss (8 posts)
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Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes
Mar 06 2009 18:53:28 Daesit, thank you for your opinion, but I guess Dušan is not regularly visiting our Forum, so you might be without his answer if nobody is going to inform him about this.
Would you like me to leave him a notice? What my reply is concerned - here is my opinion: Surnames are surely not the best indicator, since it is usually only up to the suffix ... Otherwise the root of the word can be interpreted in many different ways. I do not agree that neither of these words can be interpreted with the help of Slavic. But this is not the main problem here. We are talking about names, which were formed under a diversity of linguistic influences - so all of the names should not serve as a proof for a prevailent linguistic culture in these regions. For example French people have a name of the main NON-LATIN (Germanic) tribe of Franconians. I do not agree that history is not to be used in such a debate. The migrationist theory is slowly but surely loosing credibility also in the modern conventional history! What is much more interesting is how came, that the nowadays Albanians do not have any compact and sensible Albanian place names in their present day territories? When did for example Slavs settle present day territory of Albania to leave there such a strong imprint of place names? If Slavs did not replace most of the Roman names, why would they do that with Iliro-Albanian ones? Moreover, how can we judge from a such undocumented language as Premedieval Albanian that the modern Albanian is not only a mixture of many influences? So to use common sense, as unpopular as it may seem, gives us still best answers. And the conclusion of such studies is that 75% of populations of middle Europe and Balkans did not migrate from any distant areas since at least Bronze Age. |
#544 |
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Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes
Mar 24 2009 12:00:14 Ciao Daesit!!!
Verz good - finallz one serious player. About OBRI - In Hercegovina there is a familly name OBROVICI - coupled with skuls that are defintely Avar origine. BRGDS S. |
#554 |
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Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes
Jun 01 2009 12:20:18 This is a free world, I suppose; you are welcome to falsify my hypotheses if you have good-enough arguments to accomplish such a task.
True, it does resemble the word "Obri", the root word to contemporary Serb surname of "Obrić" but ethno-linguistics ascribe this surname to a slavic version of the word Avar (Avri or Abri) ( See Malcom, Noel, "Bosnia-A Shrot History" ), which does not make this word a Slavic or a Serbian one. First, we have to know that Romans often used to add a vowel in front of the foreign names; for example Aegyptus; Gr. Αἰγύπτιος; Arabic qubṭi; Coptic kubti; Ulpiana from Lipiana ie. Lipljan (as you can see Lipljan is the same Slavic place name as Ljubljana or Lublin. Obviously, Ulpiana cannot be of some presupposed "Illyrio-Albanian" origin unless you believe that Illyrans lived all across the European continent (Lublin is a town in Poland!; Russ. Люблин sounds almost the same as Ljubljana; cf. Serb. ljubljenje \'kissing\' and lepljenje \'sticking\'. The other thing is that none of the IE words can originally begin with the vowel, but with the some of the "laryngeals". ABRI is not the name whose origin could be easily detected. In this case we can just compare this name with the Slavic words related to \'turning\' (obrtanje, obrnuti, obrníti, obrecnuti se, obrana, obaranje, borenje, brana etc.). What about the Plato\'s Abaris the Hyperborean? This physician came to Greece from the "north" (realm beyond the known Greek borders) and the name of that man could be of Slavic or Germanic origin (Havro/Avro, Cz. Havránek; Serb. Gavro, Gavranić, Gavran, Gavrilo). In fact, Avro, Havro, Gavro is the personal name derived from the name Havran (Raven; metathesis from Harvan; Lat. corvus \'raven, crow\', which is a black colored bird (from garav \'swarthy\'; cf. Slovenian gara \'črna živina - black poultry\'; obviously related to Slav. goreti \'burn, blaze\'; Serb. ogorevati \'smolder\'. Finally, it is not impossible that Avars yielded that name in accordance with the Slavic verbs goreti/hořet (burn) and harati (devastate, ravage) via the the name of raven (a bird of prey): Havran, Havre/Gavre (Lat. corvus). To be continued... |
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Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes
Jun 01 2009 20:57:48 Of course, there is nothing that we could say for sure about the name of Avars; moreover, during the 7th century it was difficult to differentiate Avars from Bulgars and Huns and even Slavs. For instant, the name (title?) Kubrat/Huvrat/Kuvrat (a Bulgarian ruler; Gr. Χουβράτης) could be a "representative" of Avars' (Havar) people; one of Kubrat's sons was Kuver/Huver, and that name appeared to be completely "H/Avaric"
Most probably, Avars were a mixture of different "nationalities" without the predominant social and ethnical group; it must be the reason why they disappeared so quickly from history (Serb. saying: propadoše kao Obri 'they perished like the Avars'). Beside, such a composition of dissimilar people must have had its "common" language (lingua franca) and it couldn't be impossible that it was just a certain form of Slavic. When the Avars invaded the Roman Empire in the 6th century the most part of the so-called Avaric forces was "constituted" of the Slavic soldiers (I think more than 70%). I told you all this because I want to point out that even the mere name of Avars (Slav. Obri) might be of Slavic provenance. In my opinion the Slavs inhabited the Balkan Peninsula long before the Christian Era; and it implies that there is a big chance that the Slavic name for Avars (Obri) is related to the Illyrian tribe of the Abri. To be contunued... |
#608 |
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Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes
Jun 03 2009 08:12:16 Unfortunately, in case of the name Abri there is no reliable proof (at least I cannot see one) that it has to do anything with any specific language. As far as the Serbian surname Obrić is concerned it would be too frivolous to conclude that this family name is directly related to the appellation of the Avars (Obri). Compare Slovenian ober/obra (giant, a remarkable person ; O.Pol. obrzym) and you will see that this word has no connection with the Avars but with the Slavic word 'brdo/breg' (hill, mountain; Cz. břeh) and 'vrh' (apex, acme, height), similar to German ober (Eng. over). Maybe it will be helpful if we mention the relation between Ger. Ufer (bank, shore) and the adverb uber (over) on one side and O.Slavic брѣгъ (bank, shore, hill-side; Russ. берег, breg, Cz. breh) and врьхъ (acme, apex; Russ. верх; Serb. vrh)? Even today we can here the Serbian syntagm "uvr brda", which means "at the top of the hill" or "over the hill". Therefore we can hardly say that Slovenian ober/obra is a word either borrowed from German or it has any relation with the name of Avars; ober is the one who is "na vrhu" (at the top), i.e. "vrhovni" (supreme, paramount). I hope you have spotted the relationship between the hill/mountain (breg, mount) and the greatness (vrhovni, para-mount). Finally, the crucial evidence that the South-Slavic town of Obrovac hadn't been entitled in accordance with the name of the Avars (Obri) is the position of its medieval settlement - at the top of the hill! (look at the fortress on the left side of the picture).
To be continued... |
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Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes
Jun 03 2009 21:49:44 Well, it seems that we could make a conclusion that the Illyrian Abri were in fact the Slavic clan of Obrići. In his book The Illyrians, John Wilkes says that Abri were known to Greeks for their method of "preparing mead from honey" and they "may have belonged to the Taulanti". These two datas are very indicative because mead (a fermented alcoholic beverage made of honey, water, and yeast) was especially popular among the Slavic people; and the name of Taulanti is almost certainly derived form the Slavic word "dolina" (valley, dell; Ger. Tal; Russ. долина); cf. Slovenian dolinec (the man who lives in a valley); dolinci in hribovci; doljani i brđani; valley people and highlanders. Earlier I mentioned Dolance, Dolinjane (Ukraina) and the village Talinovac (Kosovo i Metohija); most probably, ancient Doclea (Duklja) is nothing else but PN Dugulja!); cf. Serbian surname Dugljević. If John Wilkes is right than the Abri (Obrići?) were just a family name inside a broader tribal society called Taulanti. In Albania itself there is a PN Dugalla, among the thousands of other Slavic toponyms (dug, dolg 'long'). Slavic dolina is derived from the same basis (*dol-hin-) as words daleko (afar, distant, long) and dlugo => dugo (lengthy, long); cf. Serb/Slav. lug, luka 'grove' where the initial 'd' (*d/lug => lug) is omitted similar to Germ. *d/lang- => lang).
To be continued... |
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Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes
Jun 03 2009 22:21:35 Ugh - Sur,
you could easily write just another article  |
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