This thread discusses the Content article: Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes

Hi Dusan,

I am addressing this discussion board with a sincere desire to conduct a decent and polite discussion on the topic you entiteld "Illyrian"(Slavic) Tribes", and thus hope that none of my comments challanging some of your theories will not be taken personally or as being offensive in any way, as is unfortunately the case in many of the internet discussions on the topic of Illyrians.


To begin with, I will approach this topic primarily linguistacally, as I believe one such approach would not be es exclussive as a historic one, being that a historic approach (that of standard conventional history) would automatically discredit any attempt to identify Illyrians as Slavs, based on commonly accepted conventional History according to which the Slavs migrated into the Balkan peninsula as late as the end of 5th and the begining of the 6th century A.D.

Therefore, I will not be so exclussive as modern conventional history is and I will give your theory a chance by refering to linguistic analysis alone.

So let's start with linguistic discrepancies first, if that's ok with you.

1. ABRI

True, it does resemble the word "Obri", the root word to contemporary Serb surname of "Obrić" but ethno-linguistics ascribe this surname to a slavic version of the word Avar (Avri or Abri) ( See Malcom, Noel, "Bosnia-A Shrot History" ), which does not make this word a Slavic or a Serbian one.

As a matter of fact, one of the the simplest test for the etymology is and has always been the meaning.

What does "Abri" mean in Serbian or any other Slavonic language? Nothing, as far as i know (Serbian being my mother language).

Even if it does have a meaning ( in which case i somehow missed it), the next test is to compare it with the same or similar word used by other people and put it in the logical context.

So, a person of Slavic (specifically Serb) ethnicity with the surname of "Obrić" is not a sufficient proof to say that this person is a descendant of Illyrians, and that by default the Illyrians were Slavs.

2. ALBANOI

While it is true that there might be some family names (surnames) like Albijanić, Labanić; Labović, Albić, Alavanja, Labus, this does not automatically presume Slavic or even less so Sertbian linguiistic heritage, for the root-word "Alb" is not a slavic word and has no meaning in any of the Slavic languages. So, even if there ba a person with the surname of Albijanić, for example, and he /she declares himself/herslef a Serb by ethnic origin, that does not make the etymology of that word a Serbian one or Slavic, and it certainly does not mean that someobody with the surname of Albijanić is a descendant of the Albanoi tribe.

For example, there is a Serb surname of Karadžić. The etymology of this surname derives from the Turkish word "karaca", meaning "of dark complexion" ( Škaljić, A., "Turcizmi u srpskohrvatskom jeziku", Svjetlost, Sarajevo, 1989).
Does that mean that the members of the karadžić family are/were Turks?
Not necessarily. There are many Serb families whose surnemes do not have Serb or Slavic etymology ( e.g. "Šućur", from Turkish "sukur" meaning "gratitide", in turn derived from Arabic "sukra" of the same meaning, "Hadžić, from Turkish "Haci"-from Arabic "hagg" a pilgrim of Makka ( for Muslims) or a pilgrim of the Jesus' grave in jerusalem ( for Christians). In any case the root word "Hadzi" ( of Arabic origin) does not mean that some "Jovan Hadžić" is an Arab or Turkish by origin, does it?

So, my first and the utmost commetn to your column is thae following:

I. Surnames are not indicative of ethnic origin of their bearers.

The fact that some of the surnames held by slavic speaking persons is in no way a credible proof that ancient Illyrians were Slavs.They were distantly related to Slavs, as much as they were related to Persians or Germanic people ( in terms of all of them sharing common Indo-European linguistic heritage), but not more than just that.

Another good example are the surnames of Jewish people from Germany , whose ancestors adopted german surnames, ( Fromm, Schuster, Scmidt, etc.etc), or Jewish people from Spain, whose ancestors adopted Spanish surnames etc.

To continue:

3. AMANDES

Yes, there is a family surname of Mandići, but again, what does the root word "Mad" mean in any of the Slavic languages? Nothing, as far as I know.

"Manda" on the other hand is a name for the forest berries in Albanian language. "Mander" is yet another plant in Albanian. This certainly is not intended at indicating that the Illyrians were the ancestors of Albanians. I am just prividing the information i posses for comparison.


4. ANDIZETES

Again, yes there are slavic-speaking people with the surname of Antić, and the name of Anto, but the root-word "Ant" has absolutely no meaning in any of the Slavic languages, correct?

On the other hand, the root word "Ant" is very widspread among the Romanic (Latin or Romanesque) speaking languages like Antoneli ( Italians) , Antonio ( Italians and spanish) Antoine ( French).

Does that mean that all these nations are Slavs or Serbs by origin? Certainly not.

After all, the rrot word of "Andizetes" is not "Ant" but "And", and so far the only plausible etymological explanation, which i am akin to favor is the pproto-Albanian word "Anda" ( in modern Albanian "andja" ) meaning "Lust" or "strong desire".

5. ARDIAEI

This is simple. I know for fact that "Arda" or Varda" has absolutely no meaning in the south-yugoslav languages ( Montenegrin, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Macednoan or Slovenian), and I'm sure the same goes for all other Slavonic languages.

Rahter than being a Slavic word, i found it plausible that this word has a latin root-word "Ardea", meaning "Heron", which is quite acceptable as a totemic symbol, and the latter usually arises from the natural environment. this indicated that the area inhabitet by the Ardiaei was abundant in herons. Stuninngly enough, there is a town in the area that once was the home to the Ardiaei. This town is Čapljina, and Čaplja in Slavic language means precisely "heron". Could this be a coincidence?
It is well accepted that cultures practiced taking the words from other languages8 in this case latin) and translating it into theor own, and vice versa. thus it is plausible that ancient Romans translated many of the original Illyrian words into altin adn vice versa. Hence, the majority of Illyrian tribe names are similar to and easily explainable by Latin.

6. AUTARIATE

Here, even if we somehow accept that the owrd "Tara" might resemble the south-slavonic word "trati", there are few clues missing such as :
a.) Is this purely slavonic word( comapre with other Slavonic languages), or did the south Slavs take it from someone else (from the Illyrians perhaps?),
b) What about the alleged "au" prefix.? How do we knoe that "Tara" is the root-word here? Again, even if it were, where's the proof its a Slavic word?

7. BREUCI

I' m sorry, but Breuci and Prečani is not sufficiently similar, is it?

8. BYLLIONES

Same here. Bjelani is similar but not the same.
And this leads to my second conclusion:

II. Insufficient similarities between two words are far from being a credible proof of the common ethnic/cultural or linmguistic origin.
E.g. "Veneti" (the nale of an Illyrian tribe) and slavonic "Venuti" look and sound similar, but what logic would drive a whole people (the veneti) to call themselves "Wither" or " Fade".


After all. the root-word "Balo" ( Serbian "Belo", Albanian" Bardh") is an Indo-European word for "White" so this is not exclusively a slavic word, if we accept that the BYLL (the root word of the BYLLIONES) has something to do with white.

This lead to my third conclusion

III. In analysing an etymology of a word, it is crucial to take into consideration the maning, and the social and cultural context in which they exist!

9. CARNI

Again, no meaning in slavonic languages.
The "Serb" surnames with the root-word of "Kara" derive from Turkish "Kara" ( meaning "black", or "dark"-coosult any pertinent luiterature, like the one refered to above) so "Carni" might be of different origin altogether.


I 'll skip the few ones for I have the same comment here too and move to Daesitiates.

DAESITATES

I honestly find that DAESITATES is just barely similar to Dostići, or Dostanići, and find your explanation through south-slavic word "dostići" ( "to achieve") naive to the point of being likeble.

Dostići, and Dostanići comes from Turkich " Dost", meaning " friend", and in turn it derives from Persian "Dost", with the same meaning ( see "Turcizmi u srpskohrvatskom jeziku" by Abdulah Škaljić, Svjetlost, Sarajevo, 1989)


DALMATAE

Daleminić might have to do with the word "Dalmatia" but what has "Dalmatia" to do with any Slavic word whatsoever?
There are some other languages provide much greater similarity and explanation of Illyrian words and names than Slavic.

As you know, Albanian word for sheep is "Delme" and again to me this seems quite plausible, given that sheep breeding was recorded as one of the largest economies of the Dalmati, although the etymology might refer to "sheeps" for symbolic or religious ( totemic) reasons.

Same with DARDANI, where Albanian word DARDHA (pear) provides a plausible explanation, given that this area was recorded as abundant in pear.

I believe thare is no need to go any further into sheding some more light into the etymology of Illyrian tribe names and the theory of the Slavic origins of Illyrians.

Linguistic explanations alone are sufficient to discredit it.

Kind Regards
Daesit

Daesit, thank you for your opinion, but I guess Dušan is not regularly visiting our Forum, so you might be without his answer if nobody is going to inform him about this.

Would you like me to leave him a notice?

What my reply is concerned - here is my opinion:

Surnames are surely not the best indicator, since it is usually only up to the suffix ... Otherwise the root of the word can be interpreted in many different ways.

I do not agree that neither of these words can be interpreted with the help of Slavic. But this is not the main problem here. We are talking about names, which were formed under a diversity of linguistic influences - so all of the names should not serve as a proof for a prevailent linguistic culture in these regions. For example French people have a name of the main NON-LATIN (Germanic) tribe of Franconians.

I do not agree that history is not to be used in such a debate. The migrationist theory is slowly but surely loosing credibility also in the modern conventional history!

What is much more interesting is how came, that the nowadays Albanians do not have any compact and sensible Albanian place names in their present day territories? When did for example Slavs settle present day territory of Albania to leave there such a strong imprint of place names? If Slavs did not replace most of the Roman names, why would they do that with Iliro-Albanian ones? Moreover, how can we judge from a such undocumented language as Premedieval Albanian that the modern Albanian is not only a mixture of many influences?

So to use common sense, as unpopular as it may seem, gives us still best answers. And the conclusion of such studies is that 75% of populations of middle Europe and Balkans did not migrate from any distant areas since at least Bronze Age.

Ciao Daesit!!!

Verz good - finallz one serious player.

About OBRI - In Hercegovina there is a familly name OBROVICI - coupled with skuls that are defintely Avar origine.

BRGDS
S.

This is a free world, I suppose; you are welcome to falsify my hypotheses if you have good-enough arguments to accomplish such a task.



First, we have to know that Romans often used to add a vowel in front of the foreign names; for example Aegyptus; Gr. Αἰγύπτιος; Arabic qubṭi; Coptic kubti; Ulpiana from Lipiana ie. Lipljan (as you can see Lipljan is the same Slavic place name as Ljubljana or Lublin. Obviously, Ulpiana cannot be of some presupposed "Illyrio-Albanian" origin unless you believe that Illyrans lived all across the European continent (Lublin is a town in Poland!; Russ. Люблин sounds almost the same as Ljubljana; cf. Serb. ljubljenje \'kissing\' and lepljenje \'sticking\'. The other thing is that none of the IE words can originally begin with the vowel, but with the some of the "laryngeals".

ABRI is not the name whose origin could be easily detected. In this case we can just compare this name with the Slavic words related to \'turning\' (obrtanje, obrnuti, obrníti, obrecnuti se, obrana, obaranje, borenje, brana etc.). What about the Plato\'s Abaris the Hyperborean? This physician came to Greece from the "north" (realm beyond the known Greek borders) and the name of that man could be of Slavic or Germanic origin (Havro/Avro, Cz. Havránek; Serb. Gavro, Gavranić, Gavran, Gavrilo). In fact, Avro, Havro, Gavro is the personal name derived from the name Havran (Raven; metathesis from Harvan; Lat. corvus \'raven, crow\', which is a black colored bird (from garav \'swarthy\'; cf. Slovenian gara \'črna živina - black poultry\'; obviously related to Slav. goreti \'burn, blaze\'; Serb. ogorevati \'smolder\'. Finally, it is not impossible that Avars yielded that name in accordance with the Slavic verbs goreti/hořet (burn) and harati (devastate, ravage) via the the name of raven (a bird of prey): Havran, Havre/Gavre (Lat. corvus).

To be continued...

Of course, there is nothing that we could say for sure about the name of Avars; moreover, during the 7th century it was difficult to differentiate Avars from Bulgars and Huns and even Slavs. For instant, the name (title?) Kubrat/Huvrat/Kuvrat (a Bulgarian ruler; Gr. Χουβράτης) could be a "representative" of Avars' (Havar) people; one of Kubrat's sons was Kuver/Huver, and that name appeared to be completely "H/Avaric"
Most probably, Avars were a mixture of different "nationalities" without the predominant social and ethnical group; it must be the reason why they disappeared so quickly from history (Serb. saying: propadoše kao Obri 'they perished like the Avars'). Beside, such a composition of dissimilar people must have had its "common" language (lingua franca) and it couldn't be impossible that it was just a certain form of Slavic.
When the Avars invaded the Roman Empire in the 6th century the most part of the so-called Avaric forces was "constituted" of the Slavic soldiers (I think more than 70%).
I told you all this because I want to point out that even the mere name of Avars (Slav. Obri) might be of Slavic provenance. In my opinion the Slavs inhabited the Balkan Peninsula long before the Christian Era; and it implies that there is a big chance that the Slavic name for Avars (Obri) is related to the Illyrian tribe of the Abri.

To be contunued...

Unfortunately, in case of the name Abri there is no reliable proof (at least I cannot see one) that it has to do anything with any specific language. As far as the Serbian surname Obrić is concerned it would be too frivolous to conclude that this family name is directly related to the appellation of the Avars (Obri). Compare Slovenian ober/obra (giant, a remarkable person ; O.Pol. obrzym) and you will see that this word has no connection with the Avars but with the Slavic word 'brdo/breg' (hill, mountain; Cz. břeh) and 'vrh' (apex, acme, height), similar to German ober (Eng. over). Maybe it will be helpful if we mention the relation between Ger. Ufer (bank, shore) and the adverb uber (over) on one side and O.Slavic брѣгъ (bank, shore, hill-side; Russ. берег, breg, Cz. breh) and врьхъ (acme, apex; Russ. верх; Serb. vrh)? Even today we can here the Serbian syntagm "uvr brda", which means "at the top of the hill" or "over the hill". Therefore we can hardly say that Slovenian ober/obra is a word either borrowed from German or it has any relation with the name of Avars; ober is the one who is "na vrhu" (at the top), i.e. "vrhovni" (supreme, paramount). I hope you have spotted the relationship between the hill/mountain (breg, mount) and the greatness (vrhovni, para-mount). Finally, the crucial evidence that the South-Slavic town of Obrovac hadn't been entitled in accordance with the name of the Avars (Obri) is the position of its medieval settlement - at the top of the hill! (look at the fortress on the left side of the picture).

To be continued...

Well, it seems that we could make a conclusion that the Illyrian Abri were in fact the Slavic clan of Obrići. In his book The Illyrians, John Wilkes says that Abri were known to Greeks for their method of "preparing mead from honey" and they "may have belonged to the Taulanti". These two datas are very indicative because mead (a fermented alcoholic beverage made of honey, water, and yeast) was especially popular among the Slavic people; and the name of Taulanti is almost certainly derived form the Slavic word "dolina" (valley, dell; Ger. Tal; Russ. долина); cf. Slovenian dolinec (the man who lives in a valley); dolinci in hribovci; doljani i brđani; valley people and highlanders. Earlier I mentioned Dolance, Dolinjane (Ukraina) and the village Talinovac (Kosovo i Metohija); most probably, ancient Doclea (Duklja) is nothing else but PN Dugulja!); cf. Serbian surname Dugljević. If John Wilkes is right than the Abri (Obrići?) were just a family name inside a broader tribal society called Taulanti. In Albania itself there is a PN Dugalla, among the thousands of other Slavic toponyms (dug, dolg 'long'). Slavic dolina is derived from the same basis (*dol-hin-) as words daleko (afar, distant, long) and dlugo => dugo (lengthy, long); cf. Serb/Slav. lug, luka 'grove' where the initial 'd' (*d/lug => lug) is omitted similar to Germ. *d/lang- => lang).

To be continued...

Ugh - Sur,

you could easily write just another article

Škoda , že Sur nepokračuje.
Dobre sa to číta !

Pa kad ne znate odakle ste dosli onda kradete tudju historiju, ILYRIAN = ALBANIAN

Jetonr napisal:


Politični konstrukt 20. stoletja.
Albancev takrat sploh ni bilo na Balkanu. Albanci so koktejl.

Saturday, 7 August 2010
A Short Introduction To Peoples Of The Caucasus

Shqiptars and Arnauts (albanians)-children of Caucasus
Wednesday, 12. August 2009

link: my.opera.com/macedonianneighbourhood/blog/show.dml/4235614

Hi all
This was done in the same tactics as the Macedonian president was killed with 15
of his crew political memebers.he got killed in Bosnia near the airport of
Tryst.
It was a criminal movement for the Albanian separatist UCK murderous from Kosovo
so they can annexed part of Macedonia, thinking belonged to them, as was the
same the same tactic done and planned in Kosovo, to take away Kosovo from
Serbia. Kosovo and Metohia never belonged to them it was always Serbian land and
was the Ancient Land of Serbia It was Slavic. Those same killers murderess from
the Albanian separatist moment that was funded by the Albanian mafia with their
headquarter in Swaziland and Germany and they been lucky because of their help
from NATO forces, EU and UN.
I wonder why they builded and erected monument to former President Bill Clinton
in the capital of Kosovo Pristina.
The Macedonian President was killed because he refused to sign the peace treaty
in Ohrid that the Albanians started the are in order to partition of Macedonia
on half and to make Great Albania with the help of the world Elites. He refused
to give the Albanians employment in the Government Institutions, so they had to
get rid of him.
The President was smart enough he saw the biggest falsification of the history
of the Balkans, he wanted to reveal the truth to the world, but was killed in a
plane crash. The World elites got to him first, before he even blinked his eyes.
That would if been exposed to the biggest lies followed with of the criminality
killing toucher, slavery, extrusion that was done to human kind in the world.

The same tactic is applied with Polish president and his wife and his crew.
The world is still sleeping as zombies, why can't they wake up this is going and
going over and over, seems never once to stop, the forces of evil they keep on
rampaging the world population, for 13 Millennia.
They killed the Shah in Iran, they killed Ghandi in India, they put in prison
the president from the African country Mandela , they killed Mao Tse Tung in
China, they ravaged middle east killed Sadam Hussein, They started the war
between Israel and Lebanon, They made wars in Grusia between the Christian
orthodox and Muslims Chasers, they destroyed Yugoslavia, they control every
political leaders, they cause war between all republics in former of Yugoslavia,
they created war between the Bosnians Muslims and Christians Serbs, They caused
the problem in Kosovo for taking Kosovo away from the Serbs, They control Hague
in Holland for world criminals over humanity, They can't recognise them self
because they are the biggest criminal on Earth.
And who is going to take them to court about the slater, ravaging, killing
inocent men and children for millennia?
They are the biggest criminals for millennia, they are just brain washing the
world population with fear, that is my brothers and sister its fear their toll
to control world population.
, that way they create and cause all these wars are going on and on it seems
never to stop.
This is ongoing war between the Khazar Empire and the Slavic Race. In the
republic of Georgia, in the Caucasus, on the terriory of the former Caucasian
Albania, from where the Avar Khanate once had its capital, there is a village
named: "Arnauti". This is the name by which Serbs, Greeks, Turks, Macedonians
and Montenegrin Serbs refer to Albanians in their respective langauges. There is
also village in Georgia named "Bushati" - which is the name of an Albanian tribe
("fis") around Lake Skadar. There are three villages named: "Geguti", "Gegeni"
and "Gegi". "Ghegheni" is the name designated to Albanians who live north of the
Shkumbi River in Albania proper.

The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in
origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like:
"Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR".
Taken together with the Shqiptar-Albanian toponyms on the territory of the
former Caucasian Albania, this theory on the etymology of "Shqipatr" becomes
more plausable.
The original URAL-ALTAIC speaking Caucasian Shqiptar-Albanians were part of the
AVAR KHANATE which had one of its early capitals in Caucasian Albania (hence
Albanian topnyms there, the possible Ural-Altaic etymology of the suffix in the
word "Shqip-tar" and the similarities in national costume with Caucasian peoples
- the non-Indo-European Georgians, in particular).

The original Shqiptar-Albanian group of AVARS settled in Northern Romania and
subjugated the Latin speaking peoples of that area when the Avars entered Europe
and conquered most of its Eastern part. Over time they assimilated most of the
Latin language of the people they conquered, but imposed their name on their new
subjects - just like the Bulg-AR tribe did in Thrace. This explains why modern
Albanian has simmilarities to the Romance languages of Romania. This Ship-tar
Av-ar tribe, I believe, moved south as far as Epirus from where the Avars are
recorded as staging their failed attack on Constantinople.
So, by the time the Avar Khanate was defeated by the armies of Serbs and Croats
and Charles the Great in the 7th century, the Avars had reached south as far as
EPIRUS from where they based this failed attack on Constantinople!!! In Epirus,
this Shqiptar-Avar tribe assimilated the Illyrians and Hellens of Epirus, as
they had done to the Latin speakers of Northern Romania more than a century
earlier.
Shqiptars began to spread north of the Shkumbi River quickly through migrations
and assimilation into the lands that Serbs had conquered north of the Shkumbi
soon after their arrival in the Balkans and their own assimilation of Illyrians.
In the early Dark Age this process of assimilation was sped up as the Shqiptars
took advantage of the early Serb kingdom's difficult war against the Bulgars. At
this time, they took advantage of the distracted Serb state to move northward
past the Shkumbi by assimilating the Serbianized Illyrians.
This process was continued until Stefan Dusan the Mighty, in whose time Latin
priests at Bar begin to see, for the first time - expulsions of the Catholic
Albanians, likely in retribution for their assimilation of Serbs north of the
Shkumbi. Assimilation of Serbs and Albanian migrations further north of the
Shkumbi continued after the death of Dusan and sped up drastically and by the
time of the defeat of prince Lazar Hrebeljanovic on Kosovo Field in 1389, the
Albanians had expanded by assimilating the Serb populace in most of what is now
Northern Albania. Throughout the Ottoman Era Albanians expanded well into
Kosovo, assimilating and driving out Serbs, mostly in the 17th century - when
Arsenius Carnojevic led 36 000 ethnically cleansed Serbian families out of
Kosovo. This process was a continuation of the ethnic cleansing Albanians had
commited against Serbs since the EARLY DARK AGE expansions north of the Shkumbi.
One of the GREATEST PROOFS that Albanians do come from the Caucasus and that
THEY ARE NOT the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians is the Turkish name for
the Albanians. "Arnauti", which means "those who have not returned" in Arabic,
for the Turks were aware of the origins of the Albanians. And they truly did not
return, they stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands.

In turn, the Albanians did not use any of those names for themselves, but called
themselves "shqiptari". The word "shqip" has many meanings in Albanian. It can
mean "eagle" or "rocky hill". Austro-Hungarian anthropologists and philologists
in early last century attempted to give the Albanians a noble character nd
theorized that the "eagle" was the root meaning and totally ignored both modern
Albania and Caucasian Albania as rocky, baren and poor places, which would
allude to the notion of the former as being the root meaning for naming
themselves.
"The Illyrians", John Wilkes
The Khazars control the leader and media in Macedonia; they are helping Greece
to continue genocide against the indigenous race of Europe.They want to wipe out
the Macedonian nation because the hold the key of the future of mankind, they
are the oldest nation in the world they are descent from the Ancient Pelasgians
a branch called Brygians, those Brygians went to Northern of Anatolia and become
Phrygians.
Ancient scholars have written down in books that the oldest nation in the world
are the Phrygians, and these are the same Brygians from the Balkans that erected
pyramids, megalithic stone monuments, observatories in the world, they gave the
first written hieroglyphic language and writing to the world, they builded the
pyramids in Bosnia, If you ask me as that possible?
Yes dear family and friend's brother and sister.
Archangel Metatron confirmed on that all the pyramids from Ancient times are
going to be awakening now, and 3 years ago was meant to happen the last pyramid
was to be unearthed in Europe, and that is the Pyramid of the Sun in Bosnia.
Those Pyramids in Bosnia are no hoax nor imaginations or fantasy are facts and
truth, there exist now three Pyramids, complex in Bosnia similar to Egypt but in
type similar to the pyramids of the Maya in Mexico. The Pelazgians are the root
of the white race the Hittites in Anatolia and Middles East are the same race,
they war called Kites , they are the ancient Aryans, they are the Ancient
Aryan-Slavic- Vedas, the Mhabrata, Ramayana and Ramajhana was written by the
Aryan-Slavic-Vedas in Sanskrit, it was not written by the Dravidian Indians that
live today in India. Well Sanskrit is the oldest language in India and Asia but
guess where it come from?
Its 7000 8000 BC oldest writing in the world it's from the Balkans It's older
then the Sumerian coniform writing, it was found in Vincha near Beograd Serbia,
the same alphabet was found in Macedonia and the oldest Goddess worshippers from
the Neolithic is found in Macedonia The Brygians where peace loving connected
with nature, they where vegetarians, until this day most of the Macedonians hold
the A+ group of Blood .it was nation they worshipped Mother Goddess , in ancient
time .the alphabet was brought to Sumerian by the Ancient Pelasgian High priest
from Macedonia Gudea.
Today's scholars don't have clue that Gudea was if you do research on the net
nothing come up.

Now recently a lot of excavation has been done by the archaeologist and found
relics with impressive art potter and culture of settlement since the
Mesolithic, Neolithic periods that was proven from the greatest scientist of her
time Dr.Marija Gimbutas.
Like Michael Tssrion has stated that the Lemurian race it didn't die off some
when underground as Argathians but some come on service after the great flood.
The Lemurians builded civilizations into three places on earth, one in the
Balkans before the Greeks, arrived and who would you thing they were?
It was the Pelazgians that erected massive megalithic monument builded Pyramids,
observatories, they had Advance Civilization, Culture Language and writing more
than 17,000 BC. The Pyramids in Bosnia the geologist predicted are of 25,000 BC
old.
The Pelazginas builded the Pantheon in Athens, it was not builded by the Greeks.
From the Pelazgian branch come the Brygians from those the Macedonian nation was
born and all the Slavic speaking races the White Race, Aleksandar the Great were
Slavic not Greek.
The legendary war of Troy was in the Balkans not in Turkey, and the tribes that
fought against the invaders witch where Achaeans and Dananinas. The Achaeans are
the same Assyrians from Middle East Khazarian well the Dananians are the Hiksis
from Northern Egypt that got expelled because of committing murder to the sons
of the Pharaoh Sosestris.
And those are Greek tribes that came as invaders that took the land from the
ancient Slavic, destroyed Ilion the capital of the Trojan Empire that was the
Empire of all Ancient Slavic races the Pelazgians .They destroyed the metrical
culture and brought in the Patriarchal culture, some of the Slavic got
assimilated by them. that still goes on with genocide today against the
autochthonic nation . After the war in Ilion the tribes spread out all over the
Balkans and Europe Most of them went north a become Celts and Venets other went
south become Macedonians ,Thracians, Ilirians east become Misians Dacians with
are the Serbians ,further in the steppes become Russians born from the Thracians
.From Alexander the Great generals was born the Ukrainians, Belorussia's, and
the same goes for the other Slavic branches.
The word "Slav" means (popular or proud) nothing else. That name was given by
the Romans and made them to be invader as the Avars, the Huns, and other
Mongolian tribes and some of the Northern Barbarians.
All Slavic nations should be given their proper original name Pelazgians because
(Pela) come from (Bela) and that means (White).All Slavic nations are white race
and all are brothers and sisters a group of the Brygians went to North and
become the Britons ,The Celts are mixture between the Ancient Phoenicians and
Slavs, they have very similarity in pottery and art same as the Venets,.The
Venets are tribes from the same group as the Pelazginas they are Slavic, The are
from the last prince of Troy(Ilion) Eneas, he with his surviving nation went to
Northern of Italy near the river Tiber mixed with the Tiberias and the Etruscan
nation was born, Those Etruscans had sophisticated culture and different
writing ,that the Greeks called it barbaric, the alphabet was the same as the
Phoenician, and the root of that alphabet is in the Vincha script oldest in the
world.
The Celts and Slavs are cousins. As British anthropologist named L.A. Waddell
says in his books "THE PHOENICIAN Origin of Britons Scots & Anglo-Saxons"

I litlle turned your interesting in this AR in Magy- AR, Tat- AR, Shipt-AR. Do you rmember what is best human for Hitler germans fashists ? AR-ians- ...This AR is oldest man sign of Caucasus nomad tribes...

Your wrong Hitler used those name so he can destroy the slavic race, i order to make them selfs superior over every other racs on the planet. but they should consider them self more cleraly because gremans are mix bag of Mongolian, Slavic and Saxon stok, ther are more slavic then other mix. as some scholar put it Grmans are the worse of the all Slavic tribes that settled in the north.
The Mongollians that settled in Germany in the dark Ages are Khazars, from caucasus, the ancient Khazar empire got wiped out by the Russian Christian Kings.
Who do you think are the Builderbergers nowdays?
Who are the Illuminati the world ellits that run this world?
Why was Hitler finaced by the Americans? from the second world war.
Why did Hitler tryed to wipe out the Slavic nations.
Why he speared the Shiptatr and they become his allies, together with the tartars-khazars of the black sea?
Why do you thin the austo-hungery made home land for the sqhiptars-kazars giving priviladge to wipe out the macedonians from the Epir and Matija todays Albania

See: Origin of Gegs and Tosk (Shqiptars or Albanians)
Saturday, 13. June 2009, 09:59:42

Link: my.opera.com/macedonianneighbourhood/blog/show.dml/4235614

The pre-Balkan history
of the Albanians
In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:

"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes, having published this work in the early 90s ruined the earlier accepted theory that Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. Wilkes is the foremost authority on Illyrians in the world today. An anthropologist, archeologist, a published historian and Professor of History whose familiarity with Balkan archeology is first hand, Wilkes' conclusions lead to the conclusion that the modern descendants of the Illyrians may in fact lie in Bosnia, Serbia and Dalmatia. While Albanians do have Illyrian blood, Wilkes leads the reader to conclude that Illyrian blood and culture most definitely to be found to a greater degree than ever thought before, in Serb lands.

Since the origins of the Albanians are not yet known, I presented the following theory of mine on the origins of the Albanians to some history professors at the University of Toronto. They all agreed that my theory was most definitely possible:

In the republic of Georgia, in the Caucasus, on the terriory of the former Caucasian Albania, from where the Avar Khanate once had its capital, there is a village named: "Arnauti". This is the name by which Serbs, Greeks, Turks, FYR-Macedonians and Montenegrin Serbs refer to Albanians in their respective langauges. There is also village in Georgia named "Bushati" - which is the name of an Albanian tribe ("fis") around Lake Skadar. There are three villages named: "Geguti", "Gegeni" and "Gegi". "Ghegheni" is the name designated to Albanians who live north of the Shkumbi River in Albania proper.

The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR". Taken together with the Shqiptar-Albanian toponyms on the territory of the former Caucasian Albania, this theory on the etymology of "Shqipatr" becomes more plausable.

The original URAL-ALTAIC speaking Caucasian Shqiptar-Albanians were part of the AVAR KHANATE which had one of its early capitals in Caucasian Albania (hence Albanian topnyms there, the possible Ural-Altaic etymology of the suffix in the word "Shqip-tar" and the similarities in national costume with Caucasian peoples - the non-Indo-European Georgians, in particular).

The original Shqiptar-Albanian group of AVARS settled in Northern Romania and subjugated the Latin speaking peoples of that area when the Avars entered Europe and conquered most of its Eastern part. Over time they assimilated most of the Latin language of the people they conquered, but imposed their name on their new subjects - just like the Bulg-AR tribe did in Thrace. This explains why modern Albanian has simmilarities to the Romance languages of Romania. This Ship-tar Av-ar tribe, I believe, moved south as far as Epirus from where the Avars are recorded as staging their failed attack on Constantinople.

So, by the time the Avar Khanate was defeated by the armies of Serbs and Croats and Charles the Great in the 7th century, the Avars had reached south as far as EPIRUS from where they based this failed attack on Constantinople!!! In Epirus, this Shqiptar-Avar tribe assimilated the Illyrians and Hellens of Epirus, as they had done to the Latin speakers of Northern Romania more than a century earlier.

While the Avars were driven out of Europe by Charles the Great and killed off by Serbs and Croats in the Balkans in the 7th century, the Serbs NEVER REACHED the south of the Shkumbi until the LATE DARK AGES. The Shqiptar-Avars in Epirus and south of the Shkumbi were left unharmed.

Shqiptars began to spread north of the Shkumbi River quickly through migrations and assimilation into the lands that Serbs had conquered north of the Shkumbi soon after their arrival in the Balkans and their own assimilation of Illyrians. In the early Dark Age this process of assimilation was sped up as the Shqiptars took advantage of the early Serb kingdom's difficult war against the Bulgars. At this time, they took advantage of the distracted Serb state to move northward past the Shkumbi by assimilating the Serbianized Illyrians.

This process was continued until Stefan Dusan the Mighty, in whose time Latin priests at Bar begin to see, for the first time - expulsions of the Catholic Albanians, likely in retribution for their assimilation of Serbs north of the Shkumbi. Assimilation of Serbs and Albanian migrations further north of the Shkumbi continued after the death of Dusan and sped up drastically and by the time of the defeat of prince Lazar Hrebeljanovic on Kosovo Field in 1389, the Albanians had expanded by assimilating the Serb populace in most of what is now Northern Albania. Throughout the Ottoman Era Albanians expanded well into Kosovo, assimilating and driving out Serbs, mostly in the 17th century - when Arsenius Carnojevic led 36 000 ethnically cleansed Serbian families out of Kosovo. This process was a continuation of the ethnic cleansing Albanians had commited against Serbs since the EARLY DARK AGE expansions north of the Shkumbi.

Another Theory on Albanian Origins

The Albanians are from the Caucasus, originally. Caucasian Albania was located on the eastern area of the Caucasus between the Caspian sea and the tips of the mountain ranges. Old Albania was known only for wild dogs and baren snow covered mountains, for which it recieved the name Albania by foreigners (Alba-white).

When Aleander the Great conquered Asia minor, he took with him the great leader of the Albanian tribes and gave him as a present an Albanian dog. Among other things, Caucasian Albania did not attract conquerors, because of its poverty and difficult terrain.

With the comming of the Arabs, they converted the Old Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them Old Albanians from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the yong Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgius Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercanaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi". The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers.



One of the GREATEST PROOFS that Albanians do come from the Caucasus and that THEY ARE NOT the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians is the Turkish name for the Albanians. "Arnauti", which means "those who have not returned" in Arabic, for the Turks were aware of the origins of the Albanians. And they truly did not return, they stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands.

In turn, the Albanians did not use any of those names for themselves, but called themselves "shqiptari". The word "shqip" has many meanings in Albanian. It can mean "eagle" or "rocky hill". Austro-Hungarian anthropologists and philologists in early last century attempted to give the Albanians a noble character nd theorized that the "eagle" was the root meaning and totally ignored both modern Albania and Caucasian Albania as rocky, baren and poor places, which would allude to the notion of the former as being the root meaning for naming themselves.

Is this just a greater Serbian quasi-history to cover up the noble Illyrian roots of Albanians? Not according to a contemporary od Maniakos, the Byzantine ruler who brought the Albanians to northern Epirus. Michael Ataliotos describes the events in his chronicle: "Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae".


Some Shqiptars are not Illyrians
Sunday, 14. June 2009, 04:05:34

Whether today's Albanians are really the same as the Illyrians?

Fake Fact:the Albanians and the Greeks....the only people that are surviving all the turbulent past of the Balkans.
Fake Fact:all aboriginal people,Macedonians , "Illyrians", Thracians, Dardans, Mizians and the other.. disappeared
Must indicate on the unjustified identification of Albanians and "Illyrians".

Stories about 'Albani' in central Albania were created by Albanian pseudo-Historians.They have suceeded to put these 'Albani' in their maps of Illyrian tribes,yet we could not see any 'Albani' or 'Albanoi' on older maps of Illyrian tribes,just Taulanti..

Facts:
-Аs we can see, the so-called Illyrian toponymy, has a clean Causcassians origin.
-The "Illyrian toponymy" mentioned in ancient times that were kept do not follow the Albanian sound change laws.
-The fact that Albanian is totally alien to the "Illyrian" language based on the "Illyrian" inscriptions.
illirian:KLOHIZISTHOTORIAMARTAPIDOVASTEIBASTA VEINANARANINDARANTOAVASTI
shqiptar:Ashtu thuhet aleksander, te jesh pasardhes. Ti nuk je baba yt, ti je pasardhesi i tij!
-In Albania, and nowhere, there are no archaeological findings that confirm the link Albanian=Illyrians.
-Similarly, the Illyrian coast is not a likely source since Albanian has no inherited nautical or indigenous sea-faring terminology, and has instead supplemented this absence with subsequent borrowing from Latin or Greek or recent metaphorical lexical creations.
-In Albania, and nowhere, there are no archaeological finds to confirm that Albanians live more than a few centuries (2-3) in the Balkans.
-Albanians are Fake Illirians.
-Albanians are descendants of the newcomers Causcassians people,who settled the Balkans together with the Turks.

-The idea that they are direct descendants of Illyrians Albanians launched the communist regime of Enver Hodzа.
-the European public research in 1962 was officially informed at the scientific conference in Florence called Settimo Congresso internazionale delle scienzie onomastiche,that the fake-Illyrians are in neighbours.


Во Царичин Град кај Лебане,каде што се наоѓало седиштето на архиепископијата на Северен Илирик,најден е “словенски” женски накит од доцниот 6 век,како и грнчарија,кои укажуваат дека тогаш,најмалку од половината на жителите на овој престолнички византиски град би биле словени.
( Јанковић 2004а).

Овакви примери има уште.
Затоа е јасно дека топонимите од римско време,како што се Скупи-Скопје или Наис-Ниш,ги сочувале “словените”,а не Власите или пак Кавказко-Арапските Шкиптари,како што си претпоставувал К. Јиречек.

continue...

The Shqip language is not related to any other Indo-European language
Sunday, 14. June 2009, 00:12:21

Turkish historians(Evlya Chelebi) mention their Caucasian origin.

The greatest authority about Illyrians, John WIlkes, stated that this ending in Shqiptar -AR is typical for Ural-Altaic nations such as BulgAR, TatAR, KhazAR, MagyAR, HungAR, etc.
This also relates to the toponyms and other names in the Caucasus.

some examples:
Albanian-Caucasian
Bushati - Bushati
Baboti - Baboti
Bashkimi - Bashkimoi
Gegh - Gegi
Sheshani - Shashani
Shkoder - Shkeder


CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA and ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA

lists of common Caucasus-Albanians words:

Chechen=naana,Albanian=nene,English=mother
Udi,Udish=Baba,Albanian=babe,English=father
Chechen=Ysh ,Albanian=Ishin,english=they were
Chechen=shu,Albanian=ju,English=you
Chechen=Vasha,Albanian=Vella,English=Brother
Udish=Pasc,Albanian=Perjashtoj,English=Rule(In)
Udish=Haq,Albanian=Plak,English=Old
Udish=egene,Albanian=nese,English=If
Udish=Marak,Albanian=Rezik,English=Peril
Udish=Kalaka,Albanian=Qytet,English=City
Udish=Bure,Albanian=Pare,English=Watch
Udish=Ar,Albanian=Aq,English=Many
Udish=Uxt,Albanian=Uje,English=Water
Udish=Ug,Albanian=Nga,English=From
Chechen=Cha'aara,Albanian=Hale,English=Fish
Udish=Mus,Albanian=Madh,English=Big
Udish=Gar,Albanian=Djal,English=Son
Udish=Dilag,Albanian=Deshiroj,English=Wish
Udish=Bakayn,Albanian=Behem,Englisg=Become
Chechen=Iighana,Albanian=Inatosur,English=Angry

Udish=Besai,Albanian=Bej,English=Make
Udish=Os,Ose,Albanian=Pas,Pasi,English=After
Udish=Tanesta,Albanian=Nenshtrohem,English=give in

Chechen=aakharkho,Albanian=katundar,English=peasant
Chechen=alsamoo,Albanian=me shume,English=more
Chechen=aagan,Albanian=eker,English=wild
Chechen=aara dalan,Albanian=jashte dal,English=get out
Chechen=aaradaqqa,Albanian=terhoqa,English=withdraw
Chechen=aaradovlilla,Albanian=rrugedalje,English=exit
Chechen=aare,Albanian=rrafsh,English=plain
Chechen=aarmo,Albanian=majte,English=left
Chechen=arzha,Albanian=zeze,English=black
Chechen=aaz,Albanian=ze,English=voice
Chechen=baarz,Albanian=varr,English=grave
Chechen=balda,Albanian=buze,English=lip
Chechen=banka,Albanian=burre,English=man
Chechen=baar,Albanian=arre,English=nut
Chechen=barsa,Albanian=shoh,pashe,English=sight
Chechen=bashkhan,Albanian=shkelqyer,English=excellent
Chechen=bekhka,Albanian=borxh,English=debt,obligation
Chechen=bil ma,Albanian=fal me,English=im sorry
Chechen=besan,Albanian=zbehte,English=pale
Chechen=borsha,Albanian=kusheri,English=male
Chechen=buha,Albanian=buf,English=owl
Chechen=buta,Albanian=bar,English=grass
Chechen=cham,Albanian=shijshem,English=tasty
Chechen=yaalla,waala,Albanian=eja,English=come here
Chechen=chu,Albanian=hyj,English=get in
Chechen=chugholla,Albanian=hyrje,English=entrance
Chechen=daago,Albanian=djeg,English=burn
Chechen=dahiita,Albanian=dergoj,English=send
Chechen=dehndi,Albanian=gjedhe,English=cattle
Chechen=dain,Albanian=drite,English=light
Chechen=daakhkan,Albanian=gjendem,English=located
Chechen=delqa,Albanian=dreke,English=lunch
Chechen=dowgha,Albanian=djeges,English=hot
Chechen=duq,Albanian=aq,English=so many
Chechen=dyelkha,Albanian=kerkoj,English=to cry
Chechen=eskar,Albanian=ushtri,English=army
Chechen=ghaighanii,Albanian=hidheroj,English=make sad
Chechen=ghaala,Albanian=kala,English=castle
Chechen=gaalat,Albanian=gabim,English=mistake
Chechen=ghishto,Albanian=ngrehine,English=building
Chechen=gharlima,Albanian=ngrirje,English=freezing
Chechen=goola,Albanian=gju,English=knee
Chechen=gowza,Albanian=zotesi,English=skill
Chechen=guu,Albanian=koder,English=hill
Chechen=hakkha,Albanian=terheq,English=draw
Chechen=hoqa,Albanian=kete,English=this
Chechen=hostam,Albanian=gozhde,English=nail
Chechen=khalkhar,Albanian=kercej,English=dance
Chechen=khan,Albanian=kohe,English=time
Chechen=khasbesh,Albanian=kopesht,English=garden
Chechen=keeda,Albanian=qetem,English=cut
Chechen=khena,Albanian=kohe,English=weather
Chechen=khila,Albanian=qene,English=been
Chechen=khilam,Albanian=kam,English=have
Chechen=kho,Albanian=koqeve,English=egg
Chechen=kog,Albanian=kembe,English=leg,foot

Names for example:
Chechen leader= Shamil Basaj(ev).
Basaj is similar or even same as Gegaj,Muljaj..etc,Albanian surnames.

Clothing:
Albanian national hat(Keche)is of Caucasian origin and been worn by Azeris(A Turkic people which now live on territory of caucasus ALBANIA).

Kish church=KISH (shqiptar) means Church...coincidence?

April 989 AD – The Varangians aided Basil in his victory over Bardas Phocas’ lieutenant, Delphinas, at Scutari, on the Asian side of the Bosphorus.
Arnavutköy (meaning "Albanian village" in Turkish)


About the uniquity of the albanian language, Jirecek and Hamp give very good explanations about it. I recomend you as one schollar to another to read them.

root mama-:
mother=nënë
burim, kryemurgeshë?
amësi,?
atdhe, vatan
atdhe, vend amëtar
nënë: prej nëne


continue...


The Shqip language is not related to "Illirian"
Sunday, 14. June 2009, 00:16:37


Ulpiana was the ROMAN name of Pristina.
Nis first name was Naissus, derived from the "greek" Naissos.
Nis is also mentioned under the name Nysa in "the Greek" Mythology.
Scodra (Livius)
Tomor from Tomarus CAUCASUS(Strabo, Pliny, etc.)
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftÎ
Teutamus (in Greek Tευταμoς; lived 4th century BC) was a Macedonian officer.
...sons of Lethus son of Teutamus. Iliad, 10.428-429
Teuta,the last "Illyrian" queen....
-Teuta - a name that is very often in Albania (sorry Shqip)
Бut, before the emergence of Shqiptar Romanticism, the name was unknown in Shiptars.


And this is Illirian fragment...
KLOHIZISTHOTORIAMARTAPIDOVASTEIBASTA VEINANARANINDARANTOAVASTI ANA OETHE ISER
Ashtu thuhet aleksander, te jesh pasardhes. Ti nuk je baba yt, ti je pasardhesi i tij! Djali yt, dhe djemte e tij jane pasardhes te tu por nuk jane ti...por jam dakord qe jemi ilir!


And this is Messapic fragment...
klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi
undeciphered; from the Vaste inscription (Corpus Inscriptionum Messapicarum 149)

his is modern Albanian...
Ashtu thuhet aleksander, te jesh pasardhes. Ti nuk je baba yt, ti je pasardhesi i tij! Djali yt, dhe djemte e tij jane pasardhes te tu por nuk jane ti...por jam dakord qe jemi ilir!

continue....
The Shqiptars are people who were brought to the Balkan by the Turks
Sunday, 14. June 2009, 02:09:32

There are two different and opposed notions of Albanians, their origin and historical role.
First,from the 11 century to the Berlin Congress in 1878, Arbanasi are Caucasian people,brought in the Balkan in mid-11th century, and second , from this date to today.
"Children Caucasus," wrote the medieval writer Magius Patavius.

Arbanites are not same people like Al-Arnauds,Gegs,Tosks and other tribes from Arabia and Caucasus

Arbanites are not same people like Shqiptars.
Arbani(tes) are the people who lived in the Balkan region before the arrival of Shqiptars.
Historical sources mention them only in the Middle Ages..not before
Arbani(tes)are no nation or tribe.
They are part of Roman (and East Roman) Empire,and "Slavic" kingdoms.
Macedonian Orthodox Church there has had great moments and there is no mention of Arbanasi.
Macedonian Saintsd there talk with the people of the Macedonian language.
Macedonian Saints there writing with the Macedonian alphabet.

Historical sources mention Tosk and Gegs in time after turks arrived to Balkan...not before

Мedieval historical sources suggests that inhabitants of Albania and Slavs speak the same language-slavic.
Tosk,Gegs and Al-Arnauts dont speak slavic.They dont speak any IE language.

All medieval toponyms, oronyms and so on are same as the ancient Macedonian, Slavic or Latin language.
Shqiptars toponyms, oronyms and so on..in time after turks arrived to Balkan...not before

Matia-Arban
Prof. Selšpčev correctly found that Arbania is the same as “Slavic” Macedonia in every aspect, and in the language, and in the economic and geomorphologic.
FACT:The Shqiptars are people who were brought to the Balkan by the Turks
They have no any roots in Balkan.

Fake Fact:Arnauts are fight agains turks,since 14 cent.

From the Ottoman register of 1431.. for Sandjak Arvanid :
-after Conquest Albania, the Turks were timariots only 30%
- The remaining 54% are already muslim Albanian...NO NEW...
- 16 % local Christians, including even episcops and mitropolitans (bishops) (134)

What this means?

Arbanasians been muslims in time before turks arrived to Balkan.

...the Albanian elite was awarded privilege by the Turks, and, as a result, was on guard against Slavic insurgency, a dread that increased after the flight of tens of thousands of Albanians from Kursumlija (Toplica district) and Vranje, after the Serbian takeover in 1878.
They retained no memory of alliances and blood ties between Albanian medieval princes
(from the families of Dukagjin, Arianit, Muzaka, Mataranga, Gropa, Thopia, Kastriot, and many others) and the Serb and Bulgar dynasts, the Slavic krajls.1
Instead they prayed with the Turks that the "seven kingdoms" should not be united.
Albanian kingdom was a mbreteri, not a Slavic krajli.
1. Milan Sufflay, Srbi i Arbanasi (Njihova simbioza u srednjem vijeku) (Belgrade, 1925), pp.121-135

Fact:Arnauts are fighting against Arbanas.
Arnauts are not Arbanas.


Fake Fact:The ethnonym applied to the people now known as Albanians is first attested from the 11th century (e.g. Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4), although such a nominal connection does not prove an actual link to the Illyrian tribe. The first reference to a lingua albanesca dates to the later 13th century.
Fact:...and reached Achrida (OHRID)....valley called Babagora...the city to Comiscortes of (city) Arbanon-Apßatvov (not Albanians) origin....
Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4



Historical fact: the Arbanites in medieval Balkan Kingdoms and Empires were not numerous.
Historical fact:the expansion of the Arnauts occurs only in the last 250 years, with the great help of the Turkish state.
Historical fact:large disparities in terms of number of Arbanites on the Macedonians , Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians in the Balkans in the time before the arrival of the Turks.
Historical fact:no historical sources for any Shqiptar,Geg or Arnaut before Turkish conquest of Balkans.
conclusion:
It is difficult to assume that there is a great Albanian or Arbanit ethnic core of many centuries ago.

Fact:No large Turkish settlement is recorded in Albania except a small number of exiles from Konya, locally called Konici.
There are also the Yürüks of Kodjadjik on the mountains to the East of Dibra where they were stationed apparently to safeguard the Rumeli-Albania highway.




Theories on the beginnings of Albanians around the core of Caucasus Albanians,brought in the XI century, this process is physically feasible.
Additional immigration similar population from the Caucasus was feasible under the Turks.

With their own Albanian language, Albanians call their land ‘Shqiperia,’ (FAKE )meaning the ‘Land of the Eagles’ while themselves ‘Shqiptare,’ meaning the ‘Sons of the Eagles.’
FACT: meaning SPEAK.

The Albanians are divided into two principal ethnic groups: The Gegs to the North of the Shkumbi River and the Tosks to the South.
The Turks called these two regions Gegalik and Toskalik.
Not only in their dialects bul also in the outlook and social behaviour the Gegs differ from the Tosks. The Gegs are considered as keeping national characteristics purer than the Tosks.


Albanians,Arnauts and Arbanas

Unfortunately this unwarlike race has as its neighbours the savage Kurds, the Albanians of Asia Minor, who treat it much as the Arnauts treated the Serbs of Old Servia.

The Albanians and Arnauts, composing nearly the entire of these refugees,



Crimean war
After the Crimean war ...More deplorable still was the lot of the Circassians and other Caucasian tribes, who, to the number of 400,000, sought a refuge in Turkey in 1864.
The pasha intrusted with the installation of these immigrants sent many of them to Western Bulgaria, in the vain hope that they would cut off all contact between Servians and Bulgarians.


continue
The Ethnoarchaeology of a "Passive" Ethnicity: The Arvanites of Central Greece_01
Sunday, 1. February 2009, 10:33:22

I have spent many years researching in the Greek landscape and have grown
used to the quiet rural life among the villages, chattering in the coffee shops
with local people in my poor modern Greek. For a long time, my conversations
with these farming folk were concerned with my interest in the importance of
olives, vines, and cereals, inquiries fed by the scholarly debate on whether the
modern Greeks and their lifestyle descend from the ancient Greek people and
their practices. I was following the common practice in Greek archaeology of
using anthropology as a guide to the ancient or prehistoric world of Greece.
All that began to change with the maturation of the Boeotia regional project,
a long-term study of a province immediately north of Athens, of which I am
codirector with Anthony Snodgrass of Cambridge University. We soon felt the
need to do something about the neglected archaeology of the fifteen hundred
years of post-Roman society in our province. We started by making sense of the
numerous medieval towers which littered the Boeotian landscape (Lock 1986).
Nonetheless, the limited Byzantine and then Prankish (Crusader) sources
provided a picture of a largely feudal landscape, filled with "Greeks" for the
most part but also peopled by a minority of short-stay invaders—French, Italian,
Catalan—essentially parasitic exploiters of local farmers. This did not disturb
the traditional model of potential continuity of Greek rural populations and their
typical lifestyles from antiquity to today. It was rather romantic, however, to
discover the forgotten history of those dukes of Athens whose curious appearance
in Shakespeare had always puzzled me—Otho de la Roche, Nicolas de St.
Omer, and so on (now wonderfully revivified in the recent introduction to
Prankish Greece by our project specialist Peter Lock (1995).
Now all this time, we were living, each summer over many years, in a village
called Mavrommati—"Black Eye" in Greek (the inhabitants told a tale
about a mottled cow that sat down in that spot). Yet our Athenian students who
attended the summer field-school we ran on the project found the village much
stranger than we did. They came and told us, mystified, that the older villagers,
left to their own private conversations, littered their talk with an unintelligible
language. "Who are they?"—they asked us.

We soon learned from our project anthropologists (cf. Slaughter and Kasimis
1986) that our village, as most others in this part of Central Greece, was
populated by Arvanites, speaking Arvanitika; in English this can be translated
as, respectively, "populations with their origin from the region in and around
modern Albania" and "Albanian-speakers." Yet our village looked typically
Greek: the role of the State, the Church, and everyday customs looked the same
as everywhere else in modern Greece.
Let us go back to the period before the Arvanitic presence—the high Middle
Ages and the period of those Prankish towers—a landscape covered with
flourishing rural settlements of Greek-speakers, dominated by an alien minor
nobility from the West who had arrived on the spurious Fourth Crusade in 1204
AD. Our ceramic specialists (John Hayes, Joanita Vroom) have perfectly mastered
the pottery of this Prankish age (cf. Vroom 1997, 1999), and in our surface
field survey we have located a small sample of the indigenous villages overseen
by the towers of nameless knights and bailiffs (figure 7.1). There is very good
reason to believe that the tower-village network in Boeotia represents a high
degree of continuity of favored settlement locations since the closely similar
Greco-Roman network of nucleated villages and small towns (figure 7.2).
Again, this is consistent with the traditional continuity model for ancient to
modern Greece.
Such potential continuity, however, if it had lasted from antiquity to the
high Middle Ages, very rarely survives the fourteenth century AD: archaeological
and historical sources prove a dramatic discontinuity in settlement and
population at the close of the Middle Ages. Numerous Byzantine village sites
are abandoned at this time and new villages appear nearby after a clear time
interval. The scanty Prankish sources for the fourteenth century tell us how
much of the countryside was swept clear of Byzantine rural communities by the
Black Death, the slave raids of Turkish pirates, and constant warfare among the
dukes of Athens, the revived Byzantine Empire, and Ottoman Turkish armies
advancing from the east. In desperation, the final, Florentine, dukes of Athens
invited immigration from Albania (which at that time was a tribal region considerably
more extensive than the modem state of that name), and large numbers
responded. Boeotia, Attica, and most of the North Péloponnèse were henceforth
dominated in the countryside by Albanian-speakers (Jochalas 1971).
Even better information of a far more detailed and accurate nature is provided
by the newly translated census records for central Greece of the early Ottoman
Empire, after its definitive conquest of Byzantine Greece by 1453.

These were made available by our project Ottomanist, Professor Machiel Kiel of
Utrecht University (Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997) (see figure 7.3). These tax
archives describe the population of what is now Greece, listing—village by village—
crops, animals, and the ethnicity of each settlement, in detail comparable
to that of the Domesday Book taxation census ordered by the Norman conquerors
in eleventh-century AD England. In the 1466 record (see figure 7.4), shortly
after the conquest, the fearful extent of Byzantine depopulation is vividly
brought out by the widespread scatter of small, newly colonizing Albanian
hamlets and the few surviving, but larger, Greek-speaking refuge communities.
The Greek-speakers would have called themselves, ironically, "Romioi" or
"Romans" to signify the Byzantine claim to continuity with the Eastern Roman
Empire—and hence were part of the communities called "Rum" by the Ottomans.
Here, on the earliest so far discovered Ottoman register for our region, we
found our own host village—its real origin not linked to a cow but called simply
after its founder, an Albanian clan-chief—Gjin Mavromati (John the Black-
Eyed), who selected this location along with his followers. In fact, most of the
new settlements appear to be small social groups of no more than thirty families,
tied to a chief who is frequently the eponymous village founder. That these incomers
were not merely ethnic Greeks with an Albanian-speaking tradition can
be shown through study of both the new village names and the personal names
listed in the Ottoman village registers, where typical Albanian personal and clan
names are ubiquitous, along with specific onomastic references to districts in
modem Albania.
At first, the Greeks continued to practice their traditional polyculture from
stable village sites, while the Albanian clan hamlets were mobile around several
village locations (katuns) with large flocks and cereal cultivation. Then under
the benevolent influence of the Pax Ottomanica, both Albanian and Greek villages
grew in size and number, while the Albanians adopted the permanent settlement
locus and tree-crops of their Greek neighbors (see figure 7.5). One finds
the same material culture on sites of both ethnic groups, expressed in ceramics
and, at least by the sixteenth century, in house types (figure 7.6). I would like to
know the costume differences, however! Aspects of Greek national costume,
such as that worn by the modern Palace Guard (Evzonoi) are essentially Albanian
costume (Mpiris 1997, 288 n. 2).
Clearly, the strongly agricultural and provincially conservative nature of
Boeotia has allowed retention of custom to today—young people in their thirties
are still proud to say they can speak traditional Arvanitika. Yet there are no "Albanian
Clubs" in Boeotia nor local histories of these people. In cosmopolitan
Athens, such clubs do exist without exciting much controversy (Carabott,
personal communication, 2001), probably because their activity has minimal
influence and public profile in a city containing almost half of the entire Greek
population. The Greek national education system (cf. chapter 3 in this volume)
stresses the heritage of classical Athens and the continuity of Greek virtues. Indeed,
history and archaeology for Greeks today usually all but stop at the Age of
Alexander, and the former only picks up again with the War of Independence in
the early nineteenth century. During the intervening two millennia of "oppression,"
the Greek spirit slumbered in chains, with only Byzantine churches and
icons to mark the eternal flame. The Albanian Greeks are a people without a
formal history and no acknowledged place in the Modern Greek state. How did
this come about?

First, we can explain the astonishing persistence of Albanian village culture
from the fourteenth to the nineteenth centuries through the ethnic and religious
tolerance characteristic of Islamic empires and so lacking in their Christian
equivalents. Ottoman control rested upon allowing local communities to keep
their religion, language, local laws, and representatives, provided that taxes were
paid (the millet system). There was no pressure for Greeks and Albanians to
conform to each other's language or other behavior.
Clear signs of change are revealed in the travel diaries of the German
scholar Ludwig Ross (1851), when he accompanied the Bavarian Otto, whom
the Allies had foisted as king upon the newly freed Greek nation in the aftermath
of the War of Independence in the 1830s. Ross praises the well-built Greek
villages of central Greece with their healthy, happy, dancing inhabitants, and
contrasts them specifically with the hovels and sickly inhabitants of Albanian
villages. In fact, recent scholarship has underlined how far it was the West that
built modern Greece in its own fanciful image as the land of a long-oppressed
people who were the direct descendants of Pericles.
This Western creation of "the glorious continuing story of the Greek People"
has been epitomized recently in the publication of multi-volume popular
encyclopedias such as "The History of the Greek Nation" and marked even more
recently by hysterical reactions to the supposed threat posed by the Slav Republic
of Macedonia—not least merely by appropriating the name "Macedonia."
Being saddled with such a foundation charter from the early years of independence
has forced the Greek education system and state propaganda to focus the
survival of the struggling young nation onto what Benedict Anderson (1991) has
termed the "imagined community" of Greeks.
Thus from the late nineteenth century onward the children of the inhabitants
of the new "nation-state" were taught in Greek, history confined itself to the
episodes of pure Greekness, and the tolerant Ottoman attitude to cultural diversity
yielded to a deliberate policy of total Hellenization of the populace—effective
enough to fool the casual observer. One is rather amazed at the persistence
today of such dual-speaking populations in much of the Albanian colonization
zone. However, apart from the provinciality of this essentially agricultural
province, a high rate of illiteracy until well into this century has also helped to
preserve Arvanitika hi the Boeotian villagers (Meijs 1993).
However, this is not a story to be uncovered easily. In the last few years,
with the collapse of East European Communism, modem-day Albanians have
flooded out of their homeland once more, in search of better employment, with
a particular focus on areas settled by then- forefathers in the Middle Ages and,
more recently, southern Italy and central and southern Greece. They are welcomed
as cheap labor but despised as untrustworthy ex-Communists. Any link
to the local population is refuted with as much vehemence as illogicality. This
denial of the multiethnic composition of the rural landscape has been helped by
state-imposed systematic place-name changes throughout this century, many as
late as the 1960s, through which a wonderful scatter of traditional Greek, Slav,
Albanian, and sometimes Italian village names has been suppressed—wherever
conceivable—in favor of the name of any ancient Greek toponym remotely
connected to the neighborhood. Thus, for example, one of our study villages,
formerly known by variants of its original Albanian founder's name of Zogra
Kobili, has been transformed into the village of Leondarion (a classical locality
not even certainly connected to the district).

While compiling my maps of village systems across the post-medieval
centuries from the Ottoman sources (archives so remarkably discovered and
tabulated for us by Machiel Kiel; see Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997), I was
careful to indicate in the English captions which of them were Albanianspeaking
and which Greek-speaking villages. A strong supporter of the project,
the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the
maps took shape. "Very interesting," he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity,
"but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in
Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and
they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika."
In this seemingly innocuous, and of course technically correct, comment
lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an "r"
for an "1." The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those
Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers
in the provinces of their country: the "Albanians" are not like us at all, they are
ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work
from their backward country; as for the Arvanites (traditional inhabitants of the
Greek countryside speaking Albanian)—well, they are a kind of ethnic Greek
population from somewhere on the northwest borders of Greece, where the line
between the Greek state and that of Albania has always been fuzzy and permeable
to intermarriage.
Thus the difference between an "1" and an "r" neatly allows the modern
Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but
widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania. Shortly
after this conversation, I saw the bishop pass across the courtyard of our project
base—a converted monastery run as a research center—to talk to the genuine
Albanian guestworkers who were restoring its stonework. I knew he was himself
an Arvanitis, and listened with interest as he chatted fluently to them—and it
wasn't in Greek! I was tempted, but wisely forbore, to ask him which language
they were conversing in—Arvanitika or Alvanika?
In a volume focusing on historic identities and boundary formation, it is a
matter of considerable interest to understand a minority's view of itself in relation
to the larger national whole into which it has been merged. Given their special
history, what is the relevance of the survival of Arvanitic language within
the modern Greek state? In conversation, provincial villagers who recognize the
Arvanitic origin of their community acknowledge this unproblematically. This
is clearly helped by the prominent role played by Arvanitic and Albanian (i.e.,
more recent migrant) heroes in the War of Independence. But clearly, as one can
see—and as these villagers point out—they are in every respect "typical" Greeks
in their politics, lifestyle, aspirations, and the desire to see their children pursue
professional careers in Athens, rather than remain within the limited economic
and social horizons of the Boeotian villages. Basically, therefore, there is never
a hint of Arvanitic resistance to Greekness, even as a means to signify the failings
of Athens to bring better conditions to the countryside, or the virtues of the
provincial way of life. One also gets the feeling that although the Arvanitic

background is unconsciously a source of local pride in knowing one's particular
roots (hence the ease with which villagers will direct you to abandoned settlements
centuries old, or discuss the arrival of their warlike, semipastoral ancestors),
this is "water under the bridge," which has no real relevance either to the
present or more importantly the future of local communities.
In contrast therefore to the more openly problematic issue of Slav speakers
in northern Greece, Arvanitic speakers in central Greece lack any signs of an
assertive ethnicity. I would like to suggest that they possess what we might term
a passive ethnicity. As a result of a number of historical factors, much of the
rural population in central Greece was Albanian-speaking by the time of the
creation of the modern Greek state in the 1830s. Until this century, most of
these people were illiterate and unschooled, yet there existed sufficient knowledge
of Greek to communicate with officials and townspeople, itinerant traders,
and so on, to limit the need to transform rural language usage. Life was extremely
provincial, with just one major carriage-road passing through the center
of the large province of Boeotia even in the 1930s (beyond which horseback and
cart took over; van Effenterre 1989). Even in the 1960s, Arvanitic village children
could be figures of fun for their Greek peers in the schools of Thebes (one
of the two regional towns) (K. Sarri, personal communication, 2000). It was not
a matter of cultural resistance but simple conservatism and provinciality, the
extreme narrowness of rural life, that allowed Arvanitic language and local historic
memories to survive so effectively to the very recent period.
This fits well with the observation that intermarriage between villages of
Arvanitic origin and those of native Greek-speaking origin has been common.
Presumably the migrant spouses would develop sufficient vocabulary to communicate
with relatives who used little Greek, or a hybrid dialect (such as can be
heard in Boeotian villages today, according to research by K. Papagiannopoullos).
Interestingly, a scientific study which analyzed the marriage patterns of the
forty-five traditional Albano-Italian villages in southern Italy (Biondi et al.
1993) found that such villages exhibited no more inbreeding that other rural
communities in Italy and less than remote communes of the central Apennines
and Alpine districts. Again one might suggest that in that other major zone of
Albanian medieval colonization, a similar passive ethnicity has operated.
Two studies of the use ofArvanitika in Greece itself (Trudgill and Tzavaras
1977; Tsitsipis 1983) add further insight into Arvanitic attitudes within modern
Greece. The language is shown to be heading toward extinction, with those using
it rapidly losing grammatical knowledge and its deployment growing more
limited in range and context. Language decline is matched with the degree of
linkage to major population centers and macroeconomic interactions to the
wider world, supporting my view of the importance of narrow horizons in the
long survival of Arvanitic traditions and language use. Questionnaires suggest
that there is also a compromise at work, in which Arvanitic communities do not
undervalue local roots and yet embrace the reality of a purely Greek linguistic
future: members of Arvanitic communities say it is better to be Arvanit than to
speak Arvanitic. As the researchers comment, the last sentiment should mark the
imminent demise of Arvanitika as a functioning alternative to modern demotic

Greek. I am not entirely sure about this—despite two generations of intensive
schooling where Arvanitika was forbidden, a limited knowledge is still a matter
of pride to some villagers, and in the villages with no main road communications,
conversations among older folk can be 95 percent Arvanitic, even at the
present day. For me as an archaeologist who wants to give local communities
their own history—something even current Greek history syllabuses fail to do—
an ethical problem does arise in privileging the very different basis from which
Arvanitic villages have developed. Does this rural society really want to have
such a history highlighted? Would rediscovering their supposed historical ethnicity
be even disadvantageous to them, especially to their children? I am still
unsure of the answer to these questions.

next

The Ethnoarchaeology of a "Passive" Ethnicity: The Arvanites of Central Greece_02
Sunday, 1. February 2009, 10:38:02

A Contrasting Narrative of Ethnicity

It would be a mistake to leave you with the impression that the "continuing glorious
story of the [ethnically pure] Greeks" really did last from antiquity until
the fourteenth century, before being subverted by the irruption of rude Albanians,
or Arvanites. A second fascinating story, less well documented, must be
told, if more briefly. It also provides an illuminating contrast in ethnic survival.
In Greco-Roman times, in the beautiful Valley of the Muses in Boeotia
(Bintliff 1996), the resident population was largely concentrated in a large village,
Askra. It was still flourishing in Late Roman times, to at least the mid-sixth
century AD, and our surface survey has provided ceramic evidence to suggest it
survived as a small hamlet throughout the succeeding Byzantine period. With
the arrival of the Franks in the thirteenth century, its population was mostly displaced
(doubtless against its will and at a Prankish lord's behest) a kilometer
away to settle below a new feudal tower on a defensive hillside overlooking the
ancient village. In the first surviving census of the Ottoman Empire for this district,
for 1466 (figure 7.4), the feudal village appears, with its early modern
name of Panagia, as a Greek refuge community surrounded by a sea of Albanian
hamlets. Despite a further relocation in the troubled seventeenth century a further
kilometer eastward, the village exists today—though typically renamed
Askra—and it is possible to believe in the likelihood of some kind of population
continuity in this community from antiquity.
Yet we should not forget that, in the late sixth century AD, the whole of the
area comprising modern Greece was overrun and colonized by Slavs emanating
from northeast Europe (Malingkoudis 1991). Central Greece, as most regions of
the peninsula—the largest towns apart—was lost to the young Byzantine Empire,
and it was only after recurrent campaigns in the late eighth century that
Constantinople regained control over the mainland Greek countryside. What
happened to the Slav settlers?

Some nationalistic Greek historians, noting the disappearance of Slav
speakers and "Slav villages" in Byzantine historical sources for southern Greece
by high medieval times, argue that the Slavs died out, went home again, or at
the very least were submerged definitively beneath the burgeoning Greek ethnic
population. Many researchers today are converging on a very different story.
The earlier Byzantine-era villages (ca. seventh to tenth centuries AD) that
we know of seem to be frequently on or near former Greco-Roman small towns
and villages, or large estate centers. Since we know that a major settlement of
Slav incomers is included in this settlement picture, it seems most likely that the
Slavs settled places of earlier settlement and probably merged with surviving
local farming populations of Greek descent to form mixed Helleno-Slav communities.
The process was enhanced by the conversion of the Slavs to Orthodoxy
throughout most of the Balkans and beyond, during this same period.
What of material culture in this era? The pottery of this early phase is likely to
be essentially derived from indigenous Roman traditions (the very rare finds of
"Slav Ware" probably reflect a tradition brought with the colonizers which rapidly
yielded precedence to the better products of local tradition, among both
ethnic groups).
Our Valley of the Muses village, anciently Askra, much later known as
Panagia—officially "Greek" in the fifteenth-century Ottoman census—seems to
have passed in between through another village name, Zaratoba (in eleventh- to
thirteenth-century Byzantine and Prankish sources, according to research by A.
Dunn)—a Slav mountain-related toponym, fitting Askra's location in the hollow
of Mount Helicon. Indeed many other Ottoman "Greek villages" in Boeotia
have Slav names, such as Harmena and Goriani. Our inference is that the large
Late Roman village of Askra shrank to a small early Byzantine hamlet, which
was one such focus of Slav settlement and perhaps, or even very plausibly, of
intermarriage with surviving Greek villagers.
Yet what happened to the language of these Slavs? Let us recall our comments
earlier on Christian empires: the resurgent Byzantine, Orthodox, Greekspeaking
empire, from the ninth century AD, privileged Greek language and
culture, and, especially in the Greek peninsula, did not encourage local ethnicity
to flourish. Thus the Helleno-Slavs became the merely "Orthodox and/or Greek"
by the fifteenth-century Ottoman tax classification of ethnic groups in Greece.
Zaratoba, thus named with its own suffragan bishop in the eleventh century,
became Panagia (Greek for the Virgin Mary—the patron of the village church),
and eventually, late this century, the name Askra has been revived for the most
recent renaming of the final resting place of this village, providing a mythical
charter of untrammeled continuity in local ethnic Greek population.

Conclusion

Beneath the apparent uniformity of contemporary provincial society in the
southern part of Greece lie startling historic discontinuities and ethnic divisions.
Even today strong memories and surviving language differences provide evidence
of surprising tenacity for the most recent influx of non-Greek-speaking
populations at the end of the Middle Ages. In contrast, a similar wave of arrivals
in the early Middle Ages might never have occurred. A long-term project in
regional history and archaeology (the British Academy Boeotia Project) has
enabled us to focus on the impact and long-term significance of the hidden ethnic
diversity in early modern and contemporary Greece, employing the evidence
of settlement history, material culture, sociology, and the Ottoman Imperial archives.
The issues which have emerged shed new light on a theme of current
interest in Greek studies: the emergence of Greek national consciousness during
and after the War of Independence and its close relationship to Western cultivation
of "the Glory that was Greece" during the nineteenth and early twentieth
centuries.

John Bintliff

RACIAL IMAGES OF ALBANIANS (SHQIPTARS)
Friday, 5. June 2009, 12:54:44

THE CIRCASSIANS, THE ALBANIANS (SHQIPTARS) AND THE BULGARIANS OF VOLGA BULGHAR

The subject of this paper is to introduce, analyse and assess the significance of three medieval ‘Yemenite’ stories, both oral and literary, which have been borrowed and adapted to explain the origin of three Muslim peoples in medieval and post-medieval Eastern Europe; the Circassians, the Albanians (Shqiptars, or Arna’uts) around the city of Elbasan, and the Muslim inhabitants of the city of Bulghar, near Kazan, on the Volga.

The Yemenites, who are introduced, vary in two respects. One tribal group were said to have been the Ghassanids, who allegedly emigrated to the area of Golan, in Syria, following the destruction of the Ma’rib dam, in the Yemen. The other tribal group- the Volga Bulgarianssucceeded the pagan ‘Adites, who were mentioned in the Qur’an and who were unbelievers, and a people who were to be replaced by believing Yemenites.
The stories are essentially adapted from the Arabian tradition. Arab blood is a mark of honour and esteem. However, in at least two of the stories, the Quraysh are central to the claim, thus introducing the Prophetic household, and the Quraysh, into the proud lineage, the nasab and the hasab, of diverse indigenous non-Arab peoples of Eastern Europe.

Before presenting my examples, I should like to draw attention to a pioneering article by my Syro-Albanian friend and colleague, Dr Muhammad Mufaku al-Arna’ut, who teaches in Al al-Bayt University, al- Mafraq, Jordan.

He entitled his article ‘The Arab origin of some of the Muslim peoples in Europe – history, myth, fantasy and policy, the Circassians’(al-Usul al-‘Arabiyya li-ba‘d al-Shu‘ub al-Muslima fi Urubba – al-Ta’rikh – al-Khayal – al-Siyasa, al-Sharakisa). His article was published in the academic journal al-Manarah and it was issued by his University in Jordan, vol 2, issue 1, Dhu’l-Qa‘da, 1417 AH/1997 AD, pp 65-82. Jordan has a substantial Circassian community and so this enabled Dr Mufaku to obtain first hand comment and information from his Circassian colleagues and friends. I shall draw attention to his article later in my conclusion.

THE SOURCES OF ARABIAN FOLK TALES IN THE BELIEFS AND THE IDENTITIES OF THREE MUSLIM PEOPLES IN EASTERN EUROPE
Forum Bosnae (39/2007)
Norris, Harry Thirlwall

Muslim heroes of the Bulgars, Tatars, Albanians and Bosnians
two legendary reports explaining the Arabian origin of the Albanians. He wrote:

Mention of the raid to the land of the Serbs, Bosnia and the Arnauts

In 863 (1458/9), he turned towards the land of the Serbs and made conquests there.
In 866 [1461/2] he conquered the region of Trebizond and Sinope and brought its master captive to Constantinople. Sultln Muhammad killed him. He had eight sons and (the Sultan) killed them (also).
The lord of Sinope was in correspondence with the king of the Persians and assisted him against Sultan Muhammad.
In the year 867 (1462/3) (the Sultan) turned afresh to complete his possession of the province of Bosnia and launched raids on the provinces of the Aftaq (Wallachians or Vlachs), the Bughdan (Moldavians) and the Saqaliba.

Then he directed his resolution towards the conquest of the country of the Albanians (Arnaut).
They are a race of Christians who possess a fortitude to withstand trials and tribulations.
They take upon themselves hard labours.
It is said that by origin they are from the Arabs of Syria, from the Banu Ghassan.
They emigrated from Syria after Allah had brought (the revelation of) al-Islam.
They came from Syria and settled in this country.
It is also said that by origin they are from the Berbers.
They crossed the sea from the Maghrib in this direction.
Then ignorance overcame them and they became Christians.

The story of the exile of the Banu Ghassan in Albania makes a pair with the account of al-SafadT, source of the story of the Circassians origin from Quraysh.
It is significant that Albania and Spain are mentioned together.
The reference to the Berbers, on the other hand, in the reports of Berber settlement among the Roman armies in the Balkans in ancient times, or else in some kind of way has come to be associated with the story of Arabs from Sicily or 'Black Arabs' in the area of Greece, Albania and parts of Yugoslavia.
In either case, be it the Ghassanids or the Berbers, some allusion to population transfer and the settlement of mercenaries appears in the web of the narrative, however fancifully the tale is expressed.

An alleged kinship between the Albanians and some Caucasians on the one hand and the Banu Ghassan on the other seems to be a variant of a ruse employed far earlier by some of the Saqaliba in Moorish Spain.

Ignaz Goldziher pointed out in his article 'Die Su'ubijja unter den Muhammedanern in Spanien',7 that the Saqaliba were a very mixed group, although a genuine Slav element was to be found.
Some of them may have stemmed from Balkan tribes.
If Raghib al-IsfahanT is to be believed, it is possible that some Bogomil or 'Adoptionist' elements were among them; 'The Saqaliba confess belief in the Creator whom they name ni'am (perhaps derived from the Slavonic Bog?).
He had a son. The world was inundated and the only person who remained was the Son of God (I think they mean Noah).'8

Islam in the Balkans By H. T. Norris

ISLAMIZATION OF SHQEPTARET: THE CLASH OF RELIGIONS IN MEDIEVAL ALBANIA.

The Albanians (Shqeptaris) are
"one of the oldest Aryan race
A Kosovar Albanian woman in front of her family's tent at the Kukes 4 refugee camp, northern Albania. April 1999 (©Human Rights Watch 1999)
of Europe" and since the majority of them are now at least nominally Muslims, comprising a very conscious and politically dynamic European nation with far-reaching correlations in the Islamic world (Ummah al-Islamiyya), it is obviously vital to try to comprehend their turbulent history, predicaments, ambitions and aspirations.

The early medieval "Albanians" emerged from the chaos of collapsing western Roman empire as the descendants of the obscure "ancient tribes of Dardanes and Paeones" who inhabited the Upper Illyria and Thrace until the massive invasions of the German Goths.
Later, in the end of the six century CE, they were displaced by the raiding Avars, "Slavs" and Bulgars. The Illyrians found their last refuge in the barren hills of Epirus, Thessaly, western Macedonia and "Albania" of the Adriatic coast.

The Muslim ethnographers and chroniclers of the "European" Middle Ages tried to explain the ethnogenesis of Albanian "Al-Arna'uts" according to their own knowledge.
They identified the ancestors of these Al-Arnauts with the Christian Arab tribes who migrated to the heartland of Byzantine empire.
The Arab writers of the classic ages of Islam knew the geographical treatises of cosmographos Ptolemy from Alexandria ( the 2nd century CE), who described the Illyrian tribe "Albanoi" as the bellicose inhabitants who lived between the Roman-controlled Dyrrachion and Albanopolis.

The Muslims of al-Andalus and Sicily also knew very well the Sakaliba, or the Alanic-origin Slavicized Croats and Serbs who as the 'mamluks' of the Altaic Avars invaded the Illyrian part of the Balkans in the first years of Hijrah.
The Slovenians and the Slavicized Croats and Serbs forced the native Albanoi herdmen to desert their ancient cradle Arbanon, north of the lake Ohrid.

Known to the medieval Europeans as Arber or Arben, these Albanian fiset (clans) fortified themselves in the hills of south-western Illyricum.
Probably some Arab Christian emigrants from Syria lived in Macedonia in the seventh century CE.
It is possible that they joined the expelled Illyrian Albanians on their trek to a new settlement inside the Shqeptaria.

The Byzantine sources indicate that the Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut, fled from Syria during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia.

During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya who "being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum." (1)


In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious dark-skinned Morovlachi from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christians were completely Serbicized in the end of seixteen century.

There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills .

How many survivors of the massacre of the Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition.
Apparently, some of the Crne Arapi (Black Arabs) of the medieval Hum, Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto ('Amir Abad'). (2)

Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant.
If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

Like the medieval Christian humanists who identified the Turks with the ancient mythical "Teucros" described by Homer, or the Muslims with the ancient "Musulami"(the warlike people of African Numidia), the Muslim writers of the classic ages of Islam tried to 'Arabize' origin of many peoples with the mythical nations known to them from the pre-Islamic Arab legends.
For example, the medieval Arabs believed that the Caucassian peoples are descendants of Banu Kureish, and the Nordic Sakaliba (Slavs), as well as the Turkic Bashgurd (Bashkirs) and Bulgars were descendants of the giant Yemenites of Ad. (3)

by A. B. Kopanski

Ali Pasha
Some uncertainty hangs also over the origin of his family.
The surname borne by the family is Hissas ; and he affirmed that he was descended from Issa, or Jesus, the head of an ancient Natolian race, who passed from Asia Minor into Epirus, with the hordes of that Bajazet whose rapid movements and destructive progress gained for him the appellation Ilderim or lightning.

Jabal-i Alhama
Legendary figure who was said to be the ancestor of the Albanian people.
The Turkish traveller Eviiya Celebi. who visited Albania in the year 1670, recounts that the Albanians venerated Jabal-i Alhama at his mausoleum in Elbasan and claimed that he was their ancestor.
Eviiya provides the follow ing apocryphal storv about Jabal al-Himma, and also gives a folk ctv mologv for the word arnaout 'Albanian,* it being, as he claimed, from the Persian
аг-nа-bud:
The mausoleum of Jabal-i Alhama, ancestor of the Albanian people. He is buried in the ... park in a place called ... outside the city of Elbasan. All the Albanians visit the grave, claiming him as their ancestor. Over a long period they have placed large stones on his grave. An account of his life was given in an earlier chapter... Jabal-i Alhama himself was of the Quraysh tribe and a companion of the Holy Prophet. He took part in the Muslim expeditions of Tabuk, Uhud, Tabut (?), Khaybar, Badr-i Hunayn. He also fought in other battles and was a courageous Arab chieftain and ghazi who offered the Holy Prophet the

Unwilling to comply, on the grounds that "there should be no shame" (ar-na-bud), Jabal-i Alhama fled with his entire clan to the

short period of time, he settled them and. mingling with the Franks, they created the Albanian language from a mixture of Prankish and Arabic. The place they originally inhabited, and where they still reside after many generations, is now called the mountain of Kurvelesh, since they are descended from the Quraysh tribe of the Arabs. Accordingly, the Albanian people boast that they are from the Quraysh, the companions of the Prophet.

For this reason, the Albanians claim that Jabal-i Alhama was a companion of the Prophet and that he died a Muslim. In short, Jabal-i Alhama of the Quraysh tribe is the ancestor of the Albanian people. At the time of the caliphate of the blessed Omar, he populated Albania and his descendants, be they bookless infidels or bookish Muslims, are a
A Dictionary of Albanian Religion, Mythology, and Folk Culture By Robert Elsie

Turkey. The Arnauts, who seem also to be a branch of ihe Tartar race, are employed much in the military service. They are very brave warriors, and the best part of the Turkish army is formed by the Arnauts. Their character and national customs are like the Turkish.
link

The places where the Christian Gebaras (Banu Ghassan.z.m.) went are Damascus, Marjeyoun, Kornet Shahwan, Jebbata el-Zeit, Ammatour, Zahleh, Jell elDeeb, Ain Aiir, Aleppo, Alexandria, Austria/Slovenia – then named Carantania,(?) which was probably known to them from their extensive trading contacts.
Was ancient Carantania their timber supplier?
Slovenian scholar Dr. Jozko Savli says it probably goes back to a very old link that goes all the way to Yemen and to the ancient Sabean kingdom.

Others proceeded to Greece, Turkey,.....
edni od niv se otideni na Sicilija,od kade se prefrleni na Balkanov.....

znaci,Banu Ghassan bile prisutni vo okolinava.....

inaku,vrski so Vizantija imale uste od vremeto koga izbegale od Yemen od islamot,bidejki bile hristijani,edni od niv se poevreile tamu.
koja bila vrskata so Vizantija?
bile platenici,janicari...
poznato?

plus,Marko se tepal co Crna Arapina....
crna arapina ne e turk....



Атанасије Урошевић је испитивао 1929. године арбанашка племена на Косову и Метохији у вези њиховог порекла према предању које код њих живи. Сви Арбанаси, без разлике, испричали су му исту причу, као и њихове хоџе такође. Предање које су му изнели било је следеће:
“Најчешће се оно састоји само у томе што за стару постојбину свих Арбанаса узима се Арабија.
Понекад је то изражено и у пригодним причама.” Сви су знали да их је из Арабије довео човек који се звао Азрети Имер, (4).
4. Атанасије Урошевић: Једна традиција о пореклу Арбанаса, ГЛАСНИК скопског научног друштва, Скопље, 1929. Т. 2, с. 311.
Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome
We assessed the relative contributions of the North African and Greek genes into the Sicily genetic pool by an admixture analysis, using Hg E3b1b-M81 for North Africa and

E3b1a2-V13 for Greece.
The estimated contribution resulted 6% for North Africa and 37.3% for Greece.

mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/24/6/1300
High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces
Some Shqiptars are related to Roma people
Sunday, 14. June 2009, 04:01:42

E (E3b*,E3b1...etc.)
Kos.albanians 47,4%
Mac.roma 29,82%

I*+I1a+I1b*+I1c
Croatia(mainland)37,0%
Bosnia 53,65%
Hercegovina 70,91%
Srbia 36,28%
Kos.albanians 7,96%
Macedonians 34,17%
Mac.roma 5,26%

ARE ALBANIANS FAKE ILIRIANS?....YES....
continue...

Some Shqiptars are mix with “slavs”
Sunday, 14. June 2009, 02:18:46

..a large part of today's Albanians are nothing else but albanised Serbs.
Researchers list...Malisore, Dukađine, residents of the District Elbasan, one of the largest Albanian tribes Krasniqi.
Dion Cassius: HISTOIRE ROMAINE, FirminDidot, Paris 1848/1889

According to family story, origin of Albanian Mirditi tribe goes back to Man-Macedonian Orthodox, trek in northern Albania and there accepted Catholicism (179)
Hahn, J.G.v. Albanesische Studien, S. 213. За мирдитите по-подробно вж. Bartl, P. Die Mirditen. Bemerkungen zur nordalbanischen Stammesgeschichte. MZfB, 1, 1978, p. 27–69.

continue...


Albanopolis and Shqiptars
Saturday, 6. June 2009, 04:37:31

The Albanian people (Albanian: Shqiptarët) believe they are the descendants of a Paleo-Balkans people, perhaps the ancient Illyrians or the Thracians and Dacians.
"Ilirian God" as demonstrator
Articles in Encyclopedias and online works are just speculations that "there is possibility" that Albanians are Illyrians.
There are many just claims that "Albanians are Illyrians",without any explanation,material evidences or logical arguments.

Fake "facts":
The Albanian ethnonym is first mentioned as an illyrian tribe living in the Roman thema (province) of Macedonia (which included southern Illyria at that time) by the ancient geographer Ptolemy in his "Geography", Book 3, Chapter 12. Specifically he refers to the Albanoi tribe living in the area with their capital Albanopolis (city of Albanians in greek) is to be found at the coordinates "46*00 41°05", somewhere inside the geographical triangle of modern cities of Tirane, Pristine and Scoplje (ancient Scupi).
'Albanoi' means Albanians in both ancient and modern greek, the -oi suffix standing for the pluriel form.

FAKE Albanopolis ( Zgërdhesh)

The ancient town is located to the right of the Fushë Kruja to Kruja road by Halil village. In 1871 the famous Austrian albanologue Han visited the Illyrian castle of Zgërdhesh and hypothesized..WOOOW that this was the ancient Albanopolis, capital of the Albans from whom the country is named.

FACT-Let's see Ptolemy:
Ptolomy's 'Geography' online.
Here he talks about Illyria and Illyrian tribes.
There is NO mention of Albanopolis,Albopolis or anything even close.
There is NO mention of "Albanoi" or Shqiptars...
It is true that the "Albanopolis" agrument is circulated the internet but no one provides the exact text.

FACT-Ptolemy's Geography - Index of Places A
• Abacaena • Abathuba • Abdara • Abdira • Abella • Abellinum • Abi R. • Abieta • Abila columna • Abravannus R. • Abrostola • Abrystum • Abula • Abuncis • Abydos • Abydus • Acabe M. • Acabis • Acamas Pr. • Acanthine I. • Acanthon • Acci • Accipitrum I. • Acelum • Achaeorum Acte • Acholla • Acinippo • Acithius R. • Acmonia • Acoris • Acra • Acrae • Acrath • Acritas Pr. • Acruvium • Aculea • Acusion • Addyme • Adeba • Adra • Adramyttium • Adria • Adru I. • Adrumetus • Adulae M. • Adulis • Aduliticus Bay, Adulis Bay • Aeas M. • Aeculanum • Aedonis I. • Aegaea • Aegara • Aegean Sea • Aegialus • Aegimius I. • Aegitharsus Pr. • Aegusa I. • Aemiliana • Aeminium • Aenesiphyra • Aenesippa I. • Aenona • Aeoli I. • Aeolis • Aequum • Aesepus R. • Aesernia • Aesis • Aesis R. • Aesisium • Aethale I. • Aethiopia below Egypt • Aethiopian M. • Aethusa I. • Aetna • Aetna M. • Aex • Aezani • Africa • African I. • Aganombri M. • Agarum Pr. • Agarus R. • Agatha • Agatha I. • Agathonis I. • Agathyrnum • Agdan • Agedicum • Aginnum • Agna R. • Agrigentinum Emporium • Agrigentum • Agrilium • Agurium • Alaba • Alabanda • Alabastrites M. • Alabastron • Alabus • Alaesa • Alanus M. • Alauna • Alaunus R. • Alavona • Alba • Alba Fucinis • Alba Pompeia • Albaugusta, Alba Augusta • Albi Camini • Albi Clivi • Albiana • Albingaunum • Albintimilium • Albion I. • Albocela • Albus Portus • Aleria • Aleta • Aleta • Aletium • Alexandri Castra • Alexandria • Alexandria Troas • Alibaca • Alinda • Alista • Allifa • Almaena • Alo • Alona • Alontium • Alopecia I. • Alpes Cottiae M. • Alpes Graiae M. • Alpes M. • Alsium • Altar of Neptune • Altars of Alexander • Altars of Caesar • Alternia • Altinum • Aluca • Alvona • Alvum • Alydda • Amadoca • Amadoci M. • Amathus • Amathusia • Ambisna • Ameria • Amici I. • Amiternum • Ammaea • Ammaedara • Ammon • Ammonis • Amorgus I. • Amorium • Ampelos Pr. • Ampsagas R. • Amuncla • Amyzon • Ana R. • Anabis • Anagnia • Anas R. • Anaunium • Ancona • Ancrina • Ancuron city • Ancyra • Andecrium • Andelus • Anderedum • Andomatunnum • Andriaca • Andron city • Anemusa • Angulus • Antaei • Antandrus • Antecuia • Antibacchi I. • Antinoцpolis • Antiochia on the Meander • Antiphellus • Antiphili • Antiphili Portus • Antiphra • Antipolis • Antipyrgos • Antissa • Antium • Antivestaeum Pr. • Anxanum • Apamea • Apamea Cibotos • Apari • Apenestae • Aperlae • Aperroe • Aphrodisia • Aphrodisium • Aphrodisium • Aphroditopolis • Apis • Apocopa • Apollinis Pr. • Apollinopolis Major • Apollinopolis Minor • Apollo Pr. • Apollonia • Apollonia • Apollonia on the Rhyndacus • Appennini M. • Apphar • Apsorrus • Apsorrus I. • Aqua Calida • Aqua Flavia • Aqua Sextia • Aquae Augustae • Aquae Calidae • Aquae Calidae • Aquae Calidae • Aquae Calidae • Aquae Hypsitanae • Aquae Lesitanae • Aquae Neapolitanae • Aquae Quacernorum • Aquileia • Aquilonia • Aquinum • Ara Eratonis Pr. • Ara Minervae I. • Arabriga • Araducca • Araducta • Arae Philaenorum • Arae Sestiorum Pr. • Arandis • Arar R. • Araurus R. • Arausion, Arausio • Arauzona • Araxa • Arba • Arbis • Arcesine • Archile • Arcilacis • Arcilacis • Arcobriga • Arcobriga • Ardanis Pr. • Ardea • Ardotium • Arelatum, Arelate • Arenosum Coast • Argennum Pr. • Argennum Pr. • Argennum Pr. • Argenomescum • Argenteola • Argentoratum • Argentovaria • Argentus R. • Argenua • Argita R. • Argoda • Argyruntum • Aricia • Arimantis • Ariminum • Arina • Aripa • Aritium • Arna • Arnus R. • Aromata • Aromata Pr. • Arpi • Arretium • Arsa • Arsenaria • Arsi • Arsinoл • Arsinoл • Arsinoл • Arsinoл • Artabri • Artamis • Artane • Artigis • Arucci • Aruccia • Arunda • Asana R. • Ascania L. • Ascanius R. • Ascerris • Asculum • Asia • Asindum • Aspis • Aspis • Aspis M. • Aspis Pr. • Aspucca • Assarath • Assarath R. • Assesia • Asso • Assorus • Assurus • Assus • Asta • Asta • Astaboras R. • Astacilis • Astacus • Astapus R. • Astarta I. • Astigis • Asturica Augusta • Astypalaea • Astypalaea I. • Asyla • Asyphus M. • Atagis R. • Atella • Aternus R. • Ateste • Athribis • Atina • Atoa • Atria • Atrianus R. • Attacum • Attii Pr. • Atuatucum • Aturis R. • Audum Pr. • Audus M. • Audus R. • Aufidena • Aufidus R. • Augala • Augila • Augusta Auscorum • Augusta Bagiennorum • Augusta Emerita • Augusta Praetoria • Augusta Rauricorum • Augusta Taurinorum • Augusta Treverorum, Augusta Trevirorum • Augusta Vessonum • Augusta Viromandeum • Augustobona • Augustobriga • Augustobriga • Augustodunum • Augustonemetum • Augustoritum • Augustum • Auritina • Ausa • Ausancali • Ausigda • Ausoba river • Austri Cornu Pr. • Ausum • Autoba • Automalax • Autraca • Autricum • Autuchi Temple • Auximis • Auzia • Avalites • Avalites Bay • Avaricum • Avarus Pr. • Avennion, Avennio • Aventicum • Avia • Avia • Avidus • Avitta • Avium I. • Avus R. • Axiaces R. • Axima • Axume, Axum • Azagarium • Azama • Azar M. • Azicis • Azilis • Azuis

FACT-Ptolemy in Book 5 chapter 15 titled "Location of Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia" (The Fifth Map of Europe) Never mentions the alleged "ALBANOPOLIS" that they support he has, and can be found at 46 degrees and 41 degrees 45', but when you look up what he really has writen, you find the city of Thermidava.

Ptolemy's Gegraphy can be found at : HERE

Where is ancient Albanopolis?

FACT-The Apostle Bartholomew is reported to have labored in the area around the south end of the Caspian Sea, in the section that was then called Armenia.
The modern name of the district where he died is Azerbaijan and the place of his death, called in New Testament times Albanopolis, is now Derbend which is on the west coast of the Caspian Sea.
The apostle Bartholomew is said to have been martyred in the year 68 AD.
www.biblepath.com/bartholomew.html

On this map we can see Serbian empire in Caucaus, and territory of Albanians

in south-western region of Caspian sea,before albanian (and servian) migrations from Caucaus.
FACT-Until the 4th century CE (Albanopolis)it was part of Caucasian Albania, and is traditionally identified with Albana, the capital.
encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Albanopolis+(Caucasus)
FACT-814 AD

Fake fact:
'Albanoi' means Albanians in both ancient and modern greek, the -oi suffix standing for the pluriel form.

FACT-Albanians call themselves Shqiptari,not Albanians.
FACT-Greeks cannot spell this.

FACT-SHQIPTAR=TATAR=BULGAR=MAGYAR=KHANDAHAR
FACT-People from Asia spell this.

continue....

Dr. N. zupanic wrote:
True fatherland of the Gegs is NOT Macedonia, but the vilaet of Caucasus!
Arnauts-Gegs are the product of wild Kurds.

Authors wrote that the mass-migration of Gegs-Mirdites (Kurdistan) from Asia, in the second half of the XVII century, which was made forcibly by the Osmanlian military authorities,1. had the mission to be broken christian element with a new religious-Muslim population.
The territory of North Arvanija (Albania, R.I.) Osmanlian occupying authorities were called Arnautlak and its inhabitants Arnauts.
Ežen Pitar ( "the people who have led the Turks in the Balkans")
R.Gorgevik ("Circassian in our country ")

continue...


Al-Arnauts Shqiptars Gegs Tosks aka Albanians
Saturday, 13. June 2009, 17:59:20
Al-Arnauts Shqiptars Gegs Tosks aka Albanians

When the Shqiptars ( some Albanians) say that we are the descendants of a Paleo-Balkans people, they do not lie to the world, but themselves.
In human history there is nothing similar to a Shqiptars absurdity.
Here we show how the Shqiptars sowing fog.

Illirians-Causcassians

Albanians (Gegs,Tosk...) today claim to be direct descendants of the Illyrians.
but,they are fake illirians.
How?

Facts:

Olcinium (Ulcinj) quod ante Colhinium dictum est, a Colchis conditum..

hic is ora Oricum oppidum a Colchis conditum, inde initum Epiri, montes Acroceraunii, quibus hunc Europae determinativus sinu
Pliny the Elder-Nat. His. III 144 + Трактат за Македонија lib. III cap. 24
Colchis the northeastern coast of Pontus-the same mentioned in Herodotus (I 2, 104)
Albanopolis and Shqiptars
Аs we can see, the so-called Illyrian toponymy, has a clean Causcassians origin.
All ancient peoples, and newcomers Colhinians had at least a dozen names.
Colhinians were known under the name Hili, Hilioi, Hilirioi.
These are the Illyrians.


As for the Illyrians and strange scientific, allegedly habits

The Roman administrative system run on the provinces and diocese.
Balkan wide diocese, called the Iliric.
This is the name of the field, and it will go under that name in mitropolian Christian system.
However, there does not marked to the inhabitants of the large diocese were Illyrians.
However, there does not means that the inhabitants of the large diocese were Illyrians.
Even Dioclia is not created according to the so-called "Illyrian" tribes Diocleats.

Were Illyrian all Western Balkan tribes,to the Sava and Drina over to Timok?
Why is Rome, Illyrian war directed only on rare always settled side!?
So increase Illyrians, their enormous number, in Antic, all are exclusively political consequences, at any cost to preserve panilirian theory, better to say - Fiction!

-Amian Marcelin (III c) in many places mentioned in Illyricum, area, and anywhere the Illyrians.
Illyrians specifically mentioned, but in the six centuries before him, when talking about the Macedonians and their struggles with the Illyrians ( "History" XXVI 9, 3).

-A Porfirogenet, he is not anywhere mentioned the Illyrians, but the area Illyricum.
-Roman emperors of Illyricum – were not Illyrians!

Were historically the Illyrians actually existed? NO.

It is easy to concluded:
-Ilirians are Fiction.
-Illyrians (what this mean?) are not aboriginal Balkans.
-Name Illyrians nowhere is not mentioned in the long history of 24 centuries.
-That was such a number of Illyrians - the loss should be recorded somewhere.

continue...

Malku za nepoznatata (na ovoj forum) istorija/etnogeneza na Albancite....

На Шар Планина помеѓу земјите на денешна Македонија и Албанија живеело население, кое никогаш не плаќале налози и не поддржува никакви врски со власта и кнезовите. Сосема слободно, то заземал неплодородни и маломерни станици во високите планини. Ова најверојатно биле предците на денешните Торбеши и Горанци.
Има веројатност во некои делови на горенаведените области и порано да живееле Арапи или селджуци.
Пример, во село Млике, Призренска, некој си Ахмед Ага потекло од Халеб, Сирија изградил џамија.

Тоа се подразбира од долупосочената плоча на џамијата во селото Млике, чиј натпис гласи следното:
Направил оваа одлични џамија Ахмед Ага во годината 1238, која исто така била изградена во 688 година по хиџра

Во тоа време освен Ахмед Ага имало и други мисионери од Халеб. Нивните потомци денес се со презимето Алеповци и живеат во селата Млике, Драгаш, Крушево и Рестелец.

Од нив имало и во Призрен, кои биле претежно Ковач и занаетчии.

Исто така постои и документ од Дамаск, стекната во 1995 година, кој е издаден од Министерството за вакъфите на Република Сирија и гласи: "Родот ал-ага од Халеб е стар род од кој се иселување многу мисионери, кои изградиле неколку џамии . "
p.s...tekstot ne e bas najdobro preveden,no mislam se razbira.....
p.s...blgarive,nesakajki,ni oddavaat vazni informacii..MERSI....

sekako,1238 g. E mnogu daleku.....
da otideme vo 2009-va....
Genetika....

Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe-Vincenza Battaglia
Sekako,koj znae podobro za srednovekovniot/osmanliski Balkan,podobro od Evliya Chelebi.
Jabal-i Alhama
Legendary figure who was said to be the ancestor of the Albanian people.
The Turkish traveller Eviiya Celebi. Who visited Albania in the year 1670, recounts that the Albanians venerated Jabal-i Alhama at his mausoleum in Elbasan and claimed that he was their ancestor.
All the Albanians visit the grave, claiming him as their ancestor.

gledame,ARAPITE DOSLE VO ELBASAN,...
napomena:ELBASAN E NOV GRAD IZGRADEN OD HRISTIJANI MAKEDONCI od Skopje (sekako,pod tursko zapovednistvo i koi se tamu preseleni od Turcite)....
no,toa e druga tema....

Znaci,Siriski pisani dokumenti,dzamija 150 g. Pred Turcite da dojdat,200 g. Pred Kastriot (koj navodno "se poturcil" otkoga dosle Turcite),Geni,Evlija.....

vidovme,na Balkanov ima Arapi,ama koj gi donel?
Eden od niv e i Ataliot.....ni kazuva za Maniakot , covekot koj gi donel...na latinski i Koine...

ova se del od Banu Ghassan koi bile od Yemen....pa na Kavkaz..pa na Sicilija..

Sekako,nekoj ke se zacudi,Banu Ghassan,Geni,Shqiptari,Yemen,Slovenija geni....
zatoa,eden keshiran link od Yemen
sekako,tekstot go ima i na drugi mesta,no ova e taka,..Yemen de.....

Tha Banu Ghassan
The political dynamics of Pre-islamic Arabia can be summarized by the interaction of three major forces: the Gassanids, the Lakhimids, and the Kindah or Kinda. The Ghassanids were a south Arabian Yemeni tribe. Banu Ghassan, migrated north (of Marib) during the third and fourth centuries, but mostly after the break up of the great Marib dam and settled in the region of Damascus. Christian by religion, they allied themselves with Byzantium. They also agreed to protect the southern flank of the Byzantine Empire against the intrusion of other Arab tribes...

The places where the Christian Gebaras went are Damascus, Marjeyoun, Kornet Shahwan, Jebbata el-Zeit, Ammatour, Zahleh, Jell elDeeb, Ain Aiir, Aleppo, Alexandria, Austria/Slovenia – then named Carantania, which was probably known to them from their extensive trading contacts.
Was ancient Carantania their timber supplier? Slovenian scholar Dr. Jozko Savli says it probably goes back to a very old link that goes all the way to Yemen and to the ancient Sabean kingdom.
Others proceeded to Greece, Turkey,......

Sekako,postojat drugi dokumenti za arapskite navleguvanja vo Jadranot-Dalmacija,Solun,Tesalija,Peloponez......
Vprocem,i Solun e najgolem grad na Makedoncite e od zapisite koga ARAPITE go osvoile Solun,Tesalija...
a i slavsite,zaedno so Arapi i Afrikanci,ja osvoija Morea (Peloponez)......

Gledame,eden cuden J* gen koj e specificen za Yemen,go ima tocno onamu kade sto istorijata i go belezi Yemenskoto-Banu Ghassansko dvizenje.....
ova so genite,ne e kako R1a koj go ima od Egejot do London i Tokio,tuku e mnogu specificno i markantno......
toj e Haplogroup J* includes all of J except for J1 and J2. J* is rarely found outside of the island of Socotra,...Yemen....

Shqiptarite imaat uste africko-Arabski/***dsko/Kavkazki geni...
no ova e cela linija,istorija,dzamii,faci,geni,.....

@Lightworker
thanks for your explicit report.
I think that noone with common sense ever believed that Ilyrians were forerunners of Sqiptari.

" because gremans are mix bag of Mongolian, Slavic and Saxon stok, ther are more slavic then other mix. as some scholar put it Grmans are the worse of the all Slavic tribes that settled in the north."

I agree vith you , Lightworker. I thing, that most European and maybe most world nations /especialy thaese who grow up to some sort of civilisation /are more or less Slavic + some of nomads -old hunters and salvage tribes mixture. In mi post was not importent Hitler- but this "magic" ÁR.

/P.s- good post- thank you/

somebody wrote: "9. CARNI

Again, no meaning in slavonic languages.
The "Serb" surnames with the root-word of "Kara" derive from Turkish "Kara" ( meaning "black", or "dark"-coosult any pertinent luiterature, like the one refered to above) so "Carni" might be of different origin altogether. "

this is another ARROGANT AND IGNORANT NONSENSE...
word "Carni" is pure Slavic or Vendic (west Slavic) word and from Venetic tribe of "Karni" or Slovene (Vendic) "Gorni" ("hilly", mountain; from that was derived "Karantania", because it was a "Hilly state" KARANtanija, GORO-stan, Hora, Gora (mountain).. in fact was to Slovenes known as "Kara-stanija" - the word was interpreted as "Carantanum" in latin sources...

Near mountain (Gora, Kara) Triglav (Trimuziadi in Venetic inscriptions; the mountain represented trinity; Aryan Trinity like Trimuziadi; Also Slavic languages; especially Slovene remained above 40% of Prakrit and Sanskrit meanings...) ) was temple of Zhiva (Shiva); means "life" it self.

Some of mongol people near Tibet are called since Aryan invasion "KIRATA" which means in Slavic "Gorata". They call them self "hilly people who are native worshipers of Shiva".
It seems that Slavic language has influences even in Tibet (Goro-stan) and also remained its meaning in Karantanian mountains by Venetic tribe, called "Karni" (Gorni) - Hilly. People that worshiped Trimurti (Triglav, Trimuziadi)

Sorry to say that Carni lived in the exact territory of Medieval North-western Slovenes, so the word must be linked in a way. And it is in a big way. See www.veneti.info/sl/home/articles/popular...-2008-06-11-12-33-24 if you know Slovenian. If you don't, than I understand your bias.

Regards