This thread discusses the Content article: Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes

Hi Dusan,

I am addressing this discussion board with a sincere desire to conduct a decent and polite discussion on the topic you entiteld "Illyrian"(Slavic) Tribes", and thus hope that none of my comments challanging some of your theories will not be taken personally or as being offensive in any way, as is unfortunately the case in many of the internet discussions on the topic of Illyrians.


To begin with, I will approach this topic primarily linguistacally, as I believe one such approach would not be es exclussive as a historic one, being that a historic approach (that of standard conventional history) would automatically discredit any attempt to identify Illyrians as Slavs, based on commonly accepted conventional History according to which the Slavs migrated into the Balkan peninsula as late as the end of 5th and the begining of the 6th century A.D.

Therefore, I will not be so exclussive as modern conventional history is and I will give your theory a chance by refering to linguistic analysis alone.

So let's start with linguistic discrepancies first, if that's ok with you.

1. ABRI

True, it does resemble the word "Obri", the root word to contemporary Serb surname of "Obrić" but ethno-linguistics ascribe this surname to a slavic version of the word Avar (Avri or Abri) ( See Malcom, Noel, "Bosnia-A Shrot History" ), which does not make this word a Slavic or a Serbian one.

As a matter of fact, one of the the simplest test for the etymology is and has always been the meaning.

What does "Abri" mean in Serbian or any other Slavonic language? Nothing, as far as i know (Serbian being my mother language).

Even if it does have a meaning ( in which case i somehow missed it), the next test is to compare it with the same or similar word used by other people and put it in the logical context.

So, a person of Slavic (specifically Serb) ethnicity with the surname of "Obrić" is not a sufficient proof to say that this person is a descendant of Illyrians, and that by default the Illyrians were Slavs.

2. ALBANOI

While it is true that there might be some family names (surnames) like Albijanić, Labanić; Labović, Albić, Alavanja, Labus, this does not automatically presume Slavic or even less so Sertbian linguiistic heritage, for the root-word "Alb" is not a slavic word and has no meaning in any of the Slavic languages. So, even if there ba a person with the surname of Albijanić, for example, and he /she declares himself/herslef a Serb by ethnic origin, that does not make the etymology of that word a Serbian one or Slavic, and it certainly does not mean that someobody with the surname of Albijanić is a descendant of the Albanoi tribe.

For example, there is a Serb surname of Karadžić. The etymology of this surname derives from the Turkish word "karaca", meaning "of dark complexion" ( Škaljić, A., "Turcizmi u srpskohrvatskom jeziku", Svjetlost, Sarajevo, 1989).
Does that mean that the members of the karadžić family are/were Turks?
Not necessarily. There are many Serb families whose surnemes do not have Serb or Slavic etymology ( e.g. "Šućur", from Turkish "sukur" meaning "gratitide", in turn derived from Arabic "sukra" of the same meaning, "Hadžić, from Turkish "Haci"-from Arabic "hagg" a pilgrim of Makka ( for Muslims) or a pilgrim of the Jesus' grave in jerusalem ( for Christians). In any case the root word "Hadzi" ( of Arabic origin) does not mean that some "Jovan Hadžić" is an Arab or Turkish by origin, does it?

So, my first and the utmost commetn to your column is thae following:

I. Surnames are not indicative of ethnic origin of their bearers.

The fact that some of the surnames held by slavic speaking persons is in no way a credible proof that ancient Illyrians were Slavs.They were distantly related to Slavs, as much as they were related to Persians or Germanic people ( in terms of all of them sharing common Indo-European linguistic heritage), but not more than just that.

Another good example are the surnames of Jewish people from Germany , whose ancestors adopted german surnames, ( Fromm, Schuster, Scmidt, etc.etc), or Jewish people from Spain, whose ancestors adopted Spanish surnames etc.

To continue:

3. AMANDES

Yes, there is a family surname of Mandići, but again, what does the root word "Mad" mean in any of the Slavic languages? Nothing, as far as I know.

"Manda" on the other hand is a name for the forest berries in Albanian language. "Mander" is yet another plant in Albanian. This certainly is not intended at indicating that the Illyrians were the ancestors of Albanians. I am just prividing the information i posses for comparison.


4. ANDIZETES

Again, yes there are slavic-speaking people with the surname of Antić, and the name of Anto, but the root-word "Ant" has absolutely no meaning in any of the Slavic languages, correct?

On the other hand, the root word "Ant" is very widspread among the Romanic (Latin or Romanesque) speaking languages like Antoneli ( Italians) , Antonio ( Italians and spanish) Antoine ( French).

Does that mean that all these nations are Slavs or Serbs by origin? Certainly not.

After all, the rrot word of "Andizetes" is not "Ant" but "And", and so far the only plausible etymological explanation, which i am akin to favor is the pproto-Albanian word "Anda" ( in modern Albanian "andja" ) meaning "Lust" or "strong desire".

5. ARDIAEI

This is simple. I know for fact that "Arda" or Varda" has absolutely no meaning in the south-yugoslav languages ( Montenegrin, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Macednoan or Slovenian), and I'm sure the same goes for all other Slavonic languages.

Rahter than being a Slavic word, i found it plausible that this word has a latin root-word "Ardea", meaning "Heron", which is quite acceptable as a totemic symbol, and the latter usually arises from the natural environment. this indicated that the area inhabitet by the Ardiaei was abundant in herons. Stuninngly enough, there is a town in the area that once was the home to the Ardiaei. This town is Čapljina, and Čaplja in Slavic language means precisely "heron". Could this be a coincidence?
It is well accepted that cultures practiced taking the words from other languages8 in this case latin) and translating it into theor own, and vice versa. thus it is plausible that ancient Romans translated many of the original Illyrian words into altin adn vice versa. Hence, the majority of Illyrian tribe names are similar to and easily explainable by Latin.

6. AUTARIATE

Here, even if we somehow accept that the owrd "Tara" might resemble the south-slavonic word "trati", there are few clues missing such as :
a.) Is this purely slavonic word( comapre with other Slavonic languages), or did the south Slavs take it from someone else (from the Illyrians perhaps?),
b) What about the alleged "au" prefix.? How do we knoe that "Tara" is the root-word here? Again, even if it were, where's the proof its a Slavic word?

7. BREUCI

I' m sorry, but Breuci and Prečani is not sufficiently similar, is it?

8. BYLLIONES

Same here. Bjelani is similar but not the same.
And this leads to my second conclusion:

II. Insufficient similarities between two words are far from being a credible proof of the common ethnic/cultural or linmguistic origin.
E.g. "Veneti" (the nale of an Illyrian tribe) and slavonic "Venuti" look and sound similar, but what logic would drive a whole people (the veneti) to call themselves "Wither" or " Fade".


After all. the root-word "Balo" ( Serbian "Belo", Albanian" Bardh") is an Indo-European word for "White" so this is not exclusively a slavic word, if we accept that the BYLL (the root word of the BYLLIONES) has something to do with white.

This lead to my third conclusion

III. In analysing an etymology of a word, it is crucial to take into consideration the maning, and the social and cultural context in which they exist!

9. CARNI

Again, no meaning in slavonic languages.
The "Serb" surnames with the root-word of "Kara" derive from Turkish "Kara" ( meaning "black", or "dark"-coosult any pertinent luiterature, like the one refered to above) so "Carni" might be of different origin altogether.


I 'll skip the few ones for I have the same comment here too and move to Daesitiates.

DAESITATES

I honestly find that DAESITATES is just barely similar to Dostići, or Dostanići, and find your explanation through south-slavic word "dostići" ( "to achieve") naive to the point of being likeble.

Dostići, and Dostanići comes from Turkich " Dost", meaning " friend", and in turn it derives from Persian "Dost", with the same meaning ( see "Turcizmi u srpskohrvatskom jeziku" by Abdulah Škaljić, Svjetlost, Sarajevo, 1989)


DALMATAE

Daleminić might have to do with the word "Dalmatia" but what has "Dalmatia" to do with any Slavic word whatsoever?
There are some other languages provide much greater similarity and explanation of Illyrian words and names than Slavic.

As you know, Albanian word for sheep is "Delme" and again to me this seems quite plausible, given that sheep breeding was recorded as one of the largest economies of the Dalmati, although the etymology might refer to "sheeps" for symbolic or religious ( totemic) reasons.

Same with DARDANI, where Albanian word DARDHA (pear) provides a plausible explanation, given that this area was recorded as abundant in pear.

I believe thare is no need to go any further into sheding some more light into the etymology of Illyrian tribe names and the theory of the Slavic origins of Illyrians.

Linguistic explanations alone are sufficient to discredit it.

Kind Regards
Daesit

Daesit, thank you for your opinion, but I guess Dušan is not regularly visiting our Forum, so you might be without his answer if nobody is going to inform him about this.

Would you like me to leave him a notice?

What my reply is concerned - here is my opinion:

Surnames are surely not the best indicator, since it is usually only up to the suffix ... Otherwise the root of the word can be interpreted in many different ways.

I do not agree that neither of these words can be interpreted with the help of Slavic. But this is not the main problem here. We are talking about names, which were formed under a diversity of linguistic influences - so all of the names should not serve as a proof for a prevailent linguistic culture in these regions. For example French people have a name of the main NON-LATIN (Germanic) tribe of Franconians.

I do not agree that history is not to be used in such a debate. The migrationist theory is slowly but surely loosing credibility also in the modern conventional history!

What is much more interesting is how came, that the nowadays Albanians do not have any compact and sensible Albanian place names in their present day territories? When did for example Slavs settle present day territory of Albania to leave there such a strong imprint of place names? If Slavs did not replace most of the Roman names, why would they do that with Iliro-Albanian ones? Moreover, how can we judge from a such undocumented language as Premedieval Albanian that the modern Albanian is not only a mixture of many influences?

So to use common sense, as unpopular as it may seem, gives us still best answers. And the conclusion of such studies is that 75% of populations of middle Europe and Balkans did not migrate from any distant areas since at least Bronze Age.

Ciao Daesit!!!

Verz good - finallz one serious player.

About OBRI - In Hercegovina there is a familly name OBROVICI - coupled with skuls that are defintely Avar origine.

BRGDS
S.

This is a free world, I suppose; you are welcome to falsify my hypotheses if you have good-enough arguments to accomplish such a task.

True, it does resemble the word "Obri", the root word to contemporary Serb surname of "Obrić" but ethno-linguistics ascribe this surname to a slavic version of the word Avar (Avri or Abri) ( See Malcom, Noel, "Bosnia-A Shrot History" ), which does not make this word a Slavic or a Serbian one.


First, we have to know that Romans often used to add a vowel in front of the foreign names; for example Aegyptus; Gr. Αἰγύπτιος; Arabic qubṭi; Coptic kubti; Ulpiana from Lipiana ie. Lipljan (as you can see Lipljan is the same Slavic place name as Ljubljana or Lublin. Obviously, Ulpiana cannot be of some presupposed "Illyrio-Albanian" origin unless you believe that Illyrans lived all across the European continent (Lublin is a town in Poland!; Russ. Люблин sounds almost the same as Ljubljana; cf. Serb. ljubljenje \'kissing\' and lepljenje \'sticking\'. The other thing is that none of the IE words can originally begin with the vowel, but with the some of the "laryngeals".

ABRI is not the name whose origin could be easily detected. In this case we can just compare this name with the Slavic words related to \'turning\' (obrtanje, obrnuti, obrníti, obrecnuti se, obrana, obaranje, borenje, brana etc.). What about the Plato\'s Abaris the Hyperborean? This physician came to Greece from the "north" (realm beyond the known Greek borders) and the name of that man could be of Slavic or Germanic origin (Havro/Avro, Cz. Havránek; Serb. Gavro, Gavranić, Gavran, Gavrilo). In fact, Avro, Havro, Gavro is the personal name derived from the name Havran (Raven; metathesis from Harvan; Lat. corvus \'raven, crow\', which is a black colored bird (from garav \'swarthy\'; cf. Slovenian gara \'črna živina - black poultry\'; obviously related to Slav. goreti \'burn, blaze\'; Serb. ogorevati \'smolder\'. Finally, it is not impossible that Avars yielded that name in accordance with the Slavic verbs goreti/hořet (burn) and harati (devastate, ravage) via the the name of raven (a bird of prey): Havran, Havre/Gavre (Lat. corvus).

To be continued...

Of course, there is nothing that we could say for sure about the name of Avars; moreover, during the 7th century it was difficult to differentiate Avars from Bulgars and Huns and even Slavs. For instant, the name (title?) Kubrat/Huvrat/Kuvrat (a Bulgarian ruler; Gr. Χουβράτης) could be a "representative" of Avars' (Havar) people; one of Kubrat's sons was Kuver/Huver, and that name appeared to be completely "H/Avaric"
Most probably, Avars were a mixture of different "nationalities" without the predominant social and ethnical group; it must be the reason why they disappeared so quickly from history (Serb. saying: propadoše kao Obri 'they perished like the Avars'). Beside, such a composition of dissimilar people must have had its "common" language (lingua franca) and it couldn't be impossible that it was just a certain form of Slavic.
When the Avars invaded the Roman Empire in the 6th century the most part of the so-called Avaric forces was "constituted" of the Slavic soldiers (I think more than 70%).
I told you all this because I want to point out that even the mere name of Avars (Slav. Obri) might be of Slavic provenance. In my opinion the Slavs inhabited the Balkan Peninsula long before the Christian Era; and it implies that there is a big chance that the Slavic name for Avars (Obri) is related to the Illyrian tribe of the Abri.

To be contunued...

Unfortunately, in case of the name Abri there is no reliable proof (at least I cannot see one) that it has to do anything with any specific language. As far as the Serbian surname Obrić is concerned it would be too frivolous to conclude that this family name is directly related to the appellation of the Avars (Obri). Compare Slovenian ober/obra (giant, a remarkable person ; O.Pol. obrzym) and you will see that this word has no connection with the Avars but with the Slavic word 'brdo/breg' (hill, mountain; Cz. břeh) and 'vrh' (apex, acme, height), similar to German ober (Eng. over). Maybe it will be helpful if we mention the relation between Ger. Ufer (bank, shore) and the adverb uber (over) on one side and O.Slavic брѣгъ (bank, shore, hill-side; Russ. берег, breg, Cz. breh) and врьхъ (acme, apex; Russ. верх; Serb. vrh)? Even today we can here the Serbian syntagm "uvr brda", which means "at the top of the hill" or "over the hill". Therefore we can hardly say that Slovenian ober/obra is a word either borrowed from German or it has any relation with the name of Avars; ober is the one who is "na vrhu" (at the top), i.e. "vrhovni" (supreme, paramount). I hope you have spotted the relationship between the hill/mountain (breg, mount) and the greatness (vrhovni, para-mount). Finally, the crucial evidence that the South-Slavic town of Obrovac hadn't been entitled in accordance with the name of the Avars (Obri) is the position of its medieval settlement - at the top of the hill! (look at the fortress on the left side of the picture).

To be continued...

Well, it seems that we could make a conclusion that the Illyrian Abri were in fact the Slavic clan of Obrići. In his book The Illyrians, John Wilkes says that Abri were known to Greeks for their method of "preparing mead from honey" and they "may have belonged to the Taulanti". These two datas are very indicative because mead (a fermented alcoholic beverage made of honey, water, and yeast) was especially popular among the Slavic people; and the name of Taulanti is almost certainly derived form the Slavic word "dolina" (valley, dell; Ger. Tal; Russ. долина); cf. Slovenian dolinec (the man who lives in a valley); dolinci in hribovci; doljani i brđani; valley people and highlanders. Earlier I mentioned Dolance, Dolinjane (Ukraina) and the village Talinovac (Kosovo i Metohija); most probably, ancient Doclea (Duklja) is nothing else but PN Dugulja!); cf. Serbian surname Dugljević. If John Wilkes is right than the Abri (Obrići?) were just a family name inside a broader tribal society called Taulanti. In Albania itself there is a PN Dugalla, among the thousands of other Slavic toponyms (dug, dolg 'long'). Slavic dolina is derived from the same basis (*dol-hin-) as words daleko (afar, distant, long) and dlugo => dugo (lengthy, long); cf. Serb/Slav. lug, luka 'grove' where the initial 'd' (*d/lug => lug) is omitted similar to Germ. *d/lang- => lang).

To be continued...

Ugh - Sur,

you could easily write just another article

Škoda , že Sur nepokračuje.
Dobre sa to číta !